What is with Martin and killing of characters? *spoilers*

[JohnSnow]

Originally Posted by Raven

..it's impossible to do that: you can't doubt, for example, that Dany will make it to the end...

Now this is something I have thought about. To use your reasoning, it probably won't happen, but I am still not completely comfortable. I think Dany could still die later. If we find out that Jon is Rheagar's son that would make Danearys' survival less certain, or Jon's. Do I really think it would happen, probably not, but then again we would not really need two Targaryan hanging around as necessity.

The more important question I think would be...IF Martin were to kill off Danearys (or Jon) in the next book would that make her (his) character less of a "main" character.

I just think it is unfair to say Ned was not a main character becuase he bit it early in the book. I could make some blasphemous references to the New Testament of the Bible/history of the world according to Christianity, but I do not want to get struck by lightning!

But seriously how long does a character have to exist in the book to make them a main character???? At what point does their demise metamorphose from wanton secondary character assassination to essential plot event????

Lastly, what then is the list of "main" (the ones that are not only mostly safe) characters:
Danearys
Jon
....
????
the dragons????

Who else would you add to that list?

Not trying to be obnoxious, but more or less playing devil's advocate, and would really like to see who you add to that list...

[Raven]

JohnS: as I sort of indicated above, I think there's a distinction between being a main character in one book of the series and being a main character in the series as a whole. Ned clearly is one of the most significant characters in AGOT, so he is a main character in the book.

One could also argue that by virtue of being a main character in one book, he is in effect a main character in the series. That seems a fair point to me.

Particularly as to some extent these lines are arbitrary. Is Tywin a main character or a secondary one? How about Robert? Davos? Cat? Jaime?

There are three characters I think are clearly going to make it to the final book, purely because their plotlines since AGOT make little sense if they don't. That's Jon, Dany and Bran. Each is clearly on an arc that will lead them to climactic roles.

Jon (we suspect) is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, leader of the NW, etc. and likely to be the PwwP. Bran's mystical role is similarly going to be obviously crucial to the resolution, so he must make it to the end. Most of all, Dany's appearance in AGOT, way before she interacts with the rest of the characters, and the fact that GRRM makes her an exception to his 'no monarch POVs' rule, makes no real sense if her plotline is not absolutely central to the story.

Indeed, in all three cases the investment in their stories is such that I can see no dramatic payoff if they don't make it to the climax. It would be an anticlimax for any of these three to die before then.

They're not guaranteed to survive the last book, mind you. GRRM has said the ending will be 'bittersweet'.

After that, I think everyone is fair game: most of them will probably make it to the last book, but there are no guarantees. Some think that Tyrion, Arya, and Sansa are guaranteed to make it: I can't get that far, I think there is small chance they'll die, but not NO chance.

[Flora]

The thing about Jon is - I know there is a lot of secrecy about his mother, but it is stated many times throughout the books that there is an extremely strong resemblence between Jon and Eddard Stark both in looks and demeanour, unless I've missed something huge and gaping I can't imagine anyone else being his father. I'm a newbie to the forums so it could be that I'm mistaken about some of the lineages within the books

Flora

[Dolorous Edd]

Originally Posted by Flora

The thing about Jon is - I know there is a lot of secrecy about his mother, but it is stated many times throughout the books that there is an extremely strong resemblence between Jon and Eddard Stark both in looks and demeanour, unless I've missed something huge and gaping I can't imagine anyone else being his father. I'm a newbie to the forums so it could be that I'm mistaken about some of the lineages within the books

Flora

Yes but it also often stated how of all Catelyn's trueborn children only Arya really looks like Ned, and how she and Jon look alike. Ned later goes on to tell Arya how much she resembles his sister Lyana. So, It could very well be that Jon Takes after his mother rather then his father. As for their personalities, well, Jon worships his father. It's only natural that he would ttry to emulate him and aquire the same attitudes and manerism's etc.

[JohnSnow]

Originally Posted by Raven

JohnS: as I sort of indicated above, I think there's a distinction between being a main character in one book of the series and being a main character in the series as a whole. Ned clearly is one of the most significant characters in AGOT, so he is a main character in the book.

One could also argue that by virtue of being a main character in one book, he is in effect a main character in the series. That seems a fair point to me.

I guess this was mostly my frustration with some of the responses. It seems that people were writing characters off as not important due to the brevity of their existence. I agree with everything you have said, I am just pointing out that a character can still be an important or daresay main character even if they are only so in one book.
The OP was basically about Martin killing off important "main" characters with reckless abandon. When Robb was killed off (and Ned and Tywin for that matter) when reading the story for the first time, I held my breath wondering who he would put on the block next. In hindsight foreshadowing was there with the stag and the wolf in the beginning of aGoT, we say we should have know about Robb because Martin had developed Frey as a double crossing character with a real bitter streak. Hindsight in the case of reading aSoIaF is not 20/20 it is more 20/40! I wonder what we will stand out as missed or over-analyzed when the series is over.

Originally Posted by Raven

There are three characters I think are clearly going to make it to the final book, purely because their plotlines since AGOT make little sense if they don't. That's Jon, Dany and Bran. Each is clearly on an arc that will lead them to climactic roles... Indeed, in all three cases the investment in their stories is such that I can see no dramatic payoff if they don't make it to the climax. It would be an anticlimax for any of these three to die before then.

I wholeheartedly agree with you, the money is on those three making it to the end simply from the investment stanpoint of his writing. And I would also conceed that those three are the "main" characters of the series because the story revolves around them for the most part.

Originally Posted by Raven

They're not guaranteed to survive the last book, mind you. GRRM has said the ending will be 'bittersweet'.

After that, I think everyone is fair game: most of them will probably make it to the last book, but there are no guarantees. Some think that Tyrion, Arya, and Sansa are guaranteed to make it: I can't get that far, I think there is small chance they'll die, but not NO chance.

I agree with you here as well. These characters are slightly less "main" characters but are still extremely important to the story, but their importance may come as a well timed death to stir the events.

Anyway I will not post to this again, I do think that Martin is generous with the demise of hs more important characters, and that is a quality that I like in his writing. You should read Sandkings if you haven't!

[AryaUnderfoot]

Originally Posted by Raven

They're not guaranteed to survive the last book, mind you. GRRM has said the ending will be 'bittersweet'.

If Bran doesn't survive I'll be heartbroken and probably throw a mighty fit.

[JohnSnow]

Originally Posted by AryaUnderfoot

If Bran doesn't survive I'll be heartbroken and probably throw a mighty fit.

We will try our best to console you!

I would agree,but I think it would be a safe bet that out of the big three, to sum up Raven's words, at least one is to die. My money is on one of 2 situations: Bran lives and Jon and Dany die OR Jon and Dany live on and Bran bites it. I do not have any real foundation other than that is the vibe I get when I think about the ending, but then again Martin is rich, famous, and a best selling author and I sit up late at night watching...well you get the point. I probably do not know what I am talking about.

Anyway, for the record Bran is turning into one of my favorite chracters in the re-reading of the series. I am with you AU and I hope he is still standing...well figuratively, at the end.

[Niolani]

I'm still upset by Ned's death and Yoren's.

[TK-421]

Originally Posted by JohnSnow

I would agree,but I think it would be a safe bet that out of the big three, to sum up Raven's words, at least one is to die. My money is on one of 2 situations: Bran lives and Jon and Dany die OR Jon and Dany live on and Bran bites it. I do not have any real foundation other than that is the vibe I get when I think about the ending, but then again Martin is rich, famous, and a best selling author and I sit up late at night watching...well you get the point. I probably do not know what I am talking about.

Not to complicate your arguments any further as I noticed you and Raven had a fairly lenghty debate already, but woudl it not be a viable theory that there are in fact 3 Targaryens around? The third being Darkstar who vanishes in Dorne after the attack on Myrcella and whom many have theorized could be the baby Aegon???

[Boaz]

TK, This has been discussed a little bit, but I don't remember where. I think someone wrote that Martin, in an interview, verbally confirmed Aegon's death... but I could be misremembering.

I need to reread AFFC, but my impression was that Darkstar was in his early twenties. Aegon, if he's still alive, would be about eighteen.

Back to Ned, I don't wanna re-argue anything, just thinking about him... Ned is our only real connection to Robert (until Cersei's POV), Littlefinger (until Tyrion goes to court), and Cersei (until Jaime's POV starts), he sets up the POV's for Jon, Bran, Catelyn, Arya, and Sansa, and without Ned we'd know nothing of Lyanna until Meera starts telling stories. Imo, Ned is the foundational character for ASOIAF.

[Dolorous Edd]

Aye, what Boaz says. Ned is the keystone to the series, the central hub, if you will, through which all the main characters connect with one another. He's not the main character, infact he's just one of many and he's been dead for 3 books - But without him the whole thing would fall apart.

[Snagas Tender Blades]

Originally Posted by Dolorous Edd

Aye, what Boaz says. Ned is the keystone to the series, the central hub, if you will, through which all the main characters connect with one another. He's not the main character, infact he's just one of many and he's been dead for 3 books - But without him the whole thing would fall apart.

I think Eddard, Lord Stark was my favourite character in AGOT, though looking back after reading the rest of the series I don't know why. His death was the only one that truly annoyed me.
But then again, I would rather have Ned dead, than have Martin turn towards the uber-heroes of R.A. Salvatore and so on. God forbid that that will ever happen!!!!