Question regarding Arthurian Legend

[the Lady of Shalott]

When Arthur's new Order began to deteriorate and before the quest for the Holy Grail, what was going on? I mean, were there tournaments still being held? Were men still being Knighted? How long did this last for? How did it start? How old was Lanclot by the time Arthur started the quest for the Grail? I used to know all of this but I'm drawing a blank at this period... ?

I would look it up in my copy of The Once and Future King but I've lent it to my step-mom.

[chrispenycate]

Personal opinion
T.H. White played fast and loose with Athurian legends, adding loads of chronological errors, both to get his point across and, mainly, to make it a good story. Plate armour, tournaments modeled on medaevel faires, agricultural models based on the nineteenth century; he didn't aim for consistancy, because it was magic.

Yes, knighting recruits was still going on; the sons of Lot of Lothian were knighted in the interim period, while the tight knit band of chosen descended into squabbling and jealousy due to the lack of challenge, and the competitive tournaments (training battles with blunted weapons, but people died in them - with a lack of outside threat they were essential, not only for maintaining readiness, but for establishing a pecking order in an organisetion where the "round table" concept had eliminated hierachical command structure) would be, if anything, more important.

The knights were a load of barbarians, following a charismatic leader. When he had nowhere to lead them, the organisation fell apart, and the one upmanship games returned. Some hung around court, some went back to their estates to terrorise the serfs, as was traditional. I don't get the feeling this was a sudden decision: it probably took some considerable period of dissolution before it became evident that a standing army needs a real objective to avoid degenerating into a public menace, smashing up pubs every night of the week and living by the "might make right" philosophy.

[the Lady of Shalott]

Thank you!

[beenorthern]

Chrispenycate is quite right in saying that T.H. White made changes to the Arthurian mythos and wrote the story the way he wanted. But that was nothing new! Sir Galahad, the Lady of Shalott – whoever heard of them until Alfred, Lord Tennyson invented them in *The Idylls of the King*. If you go back to the earliest legends, Lancelot doesn’t exist – although he was on the scene by the time Sir Thomas Malory wrote *Le Morte d’Arthur*, which is the earliest Arthurian fantasy most of us read.

Whoever Arthur was, he probably wasn’t a king, and his followers certainly weren’t knights ... Knights were still over five centuries away, and plate armour and tournaments even farther ahead. The minstels who wrote the chansons du Arthur just decked the characters out in the trappings of the 12th century. There are no firsthand accounts from the 500's, but I do believe that there was a real Arthur – a grain of actual sand at the centre of nacreous layers of myth. He is one of our culture’s great archetypes and it’s only natural that authors will reinterpret that archetype continually.

My current favourite Arthurian fantasy is Alice Borchardt’s series, which has started off with *The Dragon Queen* and *The Raven Warrior*. I also recommend Gillian Bradshaw’s trilogy: *Hawk of May*, *Kingdom of Summer*, *In Winter’s Shadow* (omnibus *Down the Long Wind*). *Ghost King* and *Last Sword of Power* by David Gemmell are also pretty good. Many will recommend *The Mists of Avalon* by Marion Zimmer Bradley – I have not read it, as it was published at a time when I had OD’d on both Arthurian fantasy and MZB.

Related fantasy:
*The Hawk’s Gray Feather* (1st of 5) Patricia Kenneally Morrison
*The Summer Tree*, *The Wandering Fire*, *The Darkest Road* (omnibus *The Fionavar Tapestry*) Guy Gavriel Kay
*Kingdom of the Grail* Judith Tarr (one of my favourites)
*The Island of the Mighty*, *The Children of Llyr*, *Prince of Annwyn*, *The Song of Rhiannon* Evangeline Walton's retelling of the Mabinogion

Related SF:
*Port Eternity* C.J. Cherryth
*For King and Country* Linda Evans & Robert Asprin
*The Dragon Rises* Adrienne Martinne-Barnes

Arthurian Historical Fiction:
*A Sword at Sunset*, *The Lantern Bearers* Rosemary Sutcliff
*The Winter King*, *Enemy of God*, *Exicalibur* Bernard Cornwall
*Black Horses for the King* Anne McCaffrey
*The Crystal Cave*, *The Hollow Hills*, *The Last Enchantment*, *The Wicked Day* Mary Stewart

Historical Fiction about Roman Britain:
*Island of Ghosts* Gillian Bradshaw
*A Shadow of Gulls*, *The Crow Goddess* Patricia Finney
*The Eagle of the Ninth*, *The Silver Branch* Rosemary Sutcliff

Mysteries set in Roman Britain:
*The Silver Pigs*, *The Jupiter Myth* Lindsey Davies
*The Legatus Mystery*, *The Chariots of Calyx* Rosemary Rowe

[Lacedaemonian]

Does my memory fail me, or did Robin Hood get a mention in White's version of the legend? Unforgivable. The Warlord Trilogy by Bernard Cornwall is best adaption of the legend available. I do not even leave this open for debate. It is the impirical truth.

[cornelius]

said the dux Bellorum, which was used around the Arhturian myths a lot

[PenDragon]

Originally Posted by Lacedaemonian

The Warlord Trilogy by Bernard Cornwall is best adaption of the legend available. I do not even leave this open for debate. It is the impirical truth.

What he said. Twice, in bold type!

Mary Stewart's Crytal Cave series is also good, different in that it's told from Merlin's POV.

Lacedaemonian, if you liked the Warlord Trilogy, you might also like Albion: The Last Companion by Patrick McCormack.

[Rahl Windsong]

Originally Posted by Lacedaemonian

Does my memory fail me, or did Robin Hood get a mention in White's version of the legend? Unforgivable. The Warlord Trilogy by Bernard Cornwall is best adaption of the legend available. I do not even leave this open for debate. It is the impirical truth.

Ok there is Bernard Cornwall and Bernard Cornwell and they both seemed to have written about the Aurthurian myths. George RR Martin recommends Cornwell in his "what I am reading" list.

Here is a quote from Martin about Cornwell, and I am a bit confused as to who is who here...

Quote:

HERETIC, by Bernard Cornwell (HarperCollins, 2004). Thanks to the BBC televison series starring Sean Bean, the world knows Bernard Cornwell best as the author of the Sharpe books, the series of smashing historical adventures chronicling the life and times of Richard Sharpe, a rough and tumble British rifleman who rises to high rank in Wellington's army during the Napoleonic Wars. Sharpe's great, mind you, but Cornwell has worked some other periods as well. His Arthurian series was damned good, and so is "The Grail Quest," his latest, a medieval trilogy about Thomas of Hookton, who's sort of Sharpe with a longbow. Thomas is a bastard bowman fighting at Crecy in the Hundred Years War, looking for loot, women, and the Holy Grail, and trying to revenge himself on the man who killed his father. Though HERETIC concludes the "grail" arc that began in HARLEQUIN and VAGABOND, I hope that Cornwell gives us more books about Thomas and his descendents. Lots of battles yet to fight in the Hundred Years War, after all...

Rahl

[pyan]

Originally Posted by Lacedaemonian

Does my memory fail me, or did Robin Hood get a mention in White's version of the legend?

Not Robin Hood, precisely, but Robin 'ood - explained as an elision for Robin Wood (or of the Wood). But the presence of Little John, Marion et al give the game away a bit.

[Rosemary]

From what I can remember from my research notes (stuck on floppy discs, which is a different story for another thread) - Arthur was probably named Arturius or Artorus. He was a Christianised Roman. Possibly part British, part Roman by birth. It had been an uncommon name in Britain, however it later became quite popular as it has been indicated that there was a brave and clever war leader. Arthur was never King (rex) of Britain.

I believe many of the myths and legends surrounding 'King Arthur' came from Celtic and Druidic ceremonies and traditions.

Centuries later a Jeoffrey of Monmothshire apparently started writing a 'fantasy' book about 'King Arthur And The Round Table'

[beenorthern]

Sorry! My bad ... That's Bernard CornwEll, with an E, one and only one ...

[dellea]

I am seeking those who are interested in King Arthur, Lord of the Rings, Medieval and Christian history. If this is your profile, please visit my discussion board. My link is in my profile, dellea.servebbs.net

[SpaceShip]

Am riveted by the Arthurian legend and have not read the books by Bernard Cornwell but will definitely try to obtain copies/borrow from library.

Has anyone read the series by Stephen Lawhead. I read them all some six or so years ago and thought them very good indeed.

[Rane Longfox]

SS - I'm assuming you mean the Pendragon Cycle?

I really enjoyed the first three - all excellent books, cleverly melding the Arthurian and Atlantean legends, but the final two in the series really put me off - they didn't fit in at all with the first three, and where nowhere near as good.
Did you find the same, or did you still enjoy the last two?

[Valko]

Originally Posted by Lacedaemonian

Does my memory fail me, or did Robin Hood get a mention in White's version of the legend? Unforgivable. The Warlord Trilogy by Bernard Cornwall is best adaption of the legend available. I do not even leave this open for debate. It is the impirical truth.

Cornwell all the way, he gave me a totally new perspective on the legend