Istari powers - open floor

[Raynor]

Our first Tolkien debate (a successful enterprise to a certain point) concerned the following topic:

"Did limiting the powers of the Istari by the Valar prolong the war against Sauron? And if so, was it a wise decision of the Valar to limit their powers?"

Since that debate was limited to only two teams, I wonder if the other members would be interested in presenting their view on the subject.

[cornelius]

good one, raynor

[HieroGlyph]

For most of the time those two teams are the most frequent visitors to the Tolkien section. The rest are busy in GRRM-group-discussion... Oo, oops, sorry, just kidding folks...

[lightvsdarkness]

Yes. Yes.

With limited powers they was most powerful beings(except Sauron). So, Bosses do not wanted to give to the people dozen of saurons or tear apart continent in cruel magic battle.

[Rinion]

The Valar saw that direct intervention was not the way to go, yet they still wished to contest Sauron's power. Therefore, they sent the Istari not to directly face the evil that stirred in the east, but convince others to do it. They were meant to get men to forge their own fate, I believe, and let them face just as much trial and tribulation as the Istari themselves.

In so doing, both sides were 'tested', I believe. Still, even with their godly powers hidden, they were a force to be reckoned with.

[Overread]

Don't forget that Sarumon was corrupted by Sauron. Had his powers not been limited he would have been an even greater threat than he already was. Also he was corrupted without the influence of the one ring and one of the ways of defeating the dark lord was to destroy the ring - which meant finding it - remember that gandaulf refused to take the ring at any cost.

[Rinion]

Originally Posted by Overread

Don't forget that Sarumon was corrupted by Sauron. Had his powers not been limited he would have been an even greater threat than he already was. Also he was corrupted without the influence of the one ring and one of the ways of defeating the dark lord was to destroy the ring - which meant finding it - remember that gandaulf refused to take the ring at any cost.

I would not say that Saruman was corrupted by Sauron as much as he was of his own greed. Sauron was, to him, simply a means of getting that power. He was very knowledgeable in the lore of the ancient rings, and his lust for that power is what really turned him to darkness, as the saying goes.

Case in point, he told the Ringwraiths that he did not know who found the ring and that he knew nothing of the Shire in an attempt to hinder them. If he was truly allied to Sauron, I doubt he would have done this. Thereafter, he spends almost all of his time in an attempt to find the Ring.

[Sephiroth]

Indeed. Saruman was a powerful Maia, his will was too great to be bent wholly to that of Sauron (this was the case even with Denethor).

In reference to the original question, limiting the powers of the Istari unquestionably prolonged the war. But it was still a wise decision. Contrast the outcome with that of the War of Wrath, when 'Beleriand was broken and laid waste'. Besides which, the existence of the One Ring made Sauron more vulnerable to a small force (say, two hobbits?) than to all the armies of Middle Earth.

[Overread]

Originally Posted by Rinion

Thereafter, he spends almost all of his time in an attempt to find the Ring.

Ture points, but I feel that he would not have betrayd Gandaulf as he might have the Rohan. Befrending the enemy to buy time to get the ring is not a stupid tactice, but turning his back on his fellow istari was what made me feel that he had become more than jealos - from memory I think at one point Gandaulf describes Sarumon as being corrupted by the enemy - the stuard of Gondor was also corrupted through the orb (can't remember name) and the dark lord also targeted either merry or pipin.
I think there was also that the feeling was given that once Sauron possessed the ring he would be tempted to use it - or carry it himself and thus be corrupted.- If in his full power that would have dramatically turned the titde of the war.

[Dean F. Wilson]

It's actually quite easy to see how Sauron at least influenced the lust Saruman developed for power, for it is told that his quest for knowledge brought him ever closer to probing the mind of the Enemy, which, as you can imagine, would put one at risk of being corrupted. I think it would be safe to say that Sauron did not corrupt Saruman, or bend him to his will (as, say, he did with the Nazgul), but he may have helped to awaken that inner greed and lust for power, which Saruman did not always have.

The limiting of the powers of the Istari may have prolonged the war with Sauron, but if Saruman was more powerful, he may have found the Ring and laid waste to Rohan, and perhaps the Ents as well. Without the aid of the Rohirrim, Sauron would have crushed Gondor, and then the Dark Lord would have waged a great war with Saruman, which would have further desecrated the land and any surviving people.

If we look at the powers of the Istari, they are all about "influence", which another poster mentioned above. Gandalf is the great "meddler of affairs", first getting a nice innocent hobbit to go on an adventure with him and his dwarves (resulting in the finding of the Ring [which perhaps the Valar had fated to happen through Gandalf's intervention]); then there is the Council of Elrond, which Gandalf plays a pivotal role in; then the trip to Rohan, where he breaks the dominion of Saruman and, in effect, influences Theoden to go forth to war (I dare say he may even have deliberately left the hobbits with Treebeard, knowing that they were perhaps the small stones that start an avalanche); and that's not even mentioning Minas Tirith. Indeed, his Ring is said to amplify his own power to influence.

And what of Saruman? The Voice of Saruman is a great example of a power to influence, and the leech-craft of Grima is an extension of Saruman's attempts to influence and dominate. Indeed, even Radagast could be said to have the power of influence, for it is with this that he has such rapport with the birds and beasts of the land.

Then there are the two Blue Wizards. We do not know much about these, but there is rumour that they went into the East and fell under the dominion of Sauron. If this is so, they became his servants (or were destroyed and their power assimilated by him). If they were more powerful, this may have made an even greater threat.

-D

[Boaz]

Sauron the drug dealer and Saruman the addict? Interesting.

[Mallorn]

Originally Posted by Dean F. Wilson

Then there are the two Blue Wizards. We do not know much about these, but there is rumour that they went into the East and fell under the dominion of Sauron. If this is so, they became his servants (or were destroyed and their power assimilated by him). If they were more powerful, this may have made an even greater threat.

-D

Surely speculation regarding Sauron assimilation their powers. Being Maiar themselves though incarnated as old men, they were Maiar nevertheless. I am not sure about this but I don't think in any part of the Silmarillion or any other work, power was assilimated by anyone.

They were either destroyed (physically) and their spirits went back to Valinor or were indeed seduced to Saurons service.

[Clansman]

Originally Posted by Dean F. Wilson

Gandalf is the great "meddler of affairs", first getting a nice innocent hobbit to go on an adventure with him and his dwarves (resulting in the finding of the Ring [which perhaps the Valar had fated to happen through Gandalf's intervention]); then there is the Council of Elrond, which Gandalf plays a pivotal role in; then the trip to Rohan, where he breaks the dominion of Saruman and, in effect, influences Theoden to go forth to war (I dare say he may even have deliberately left the hobbits with Treebeard, knowing that they were perhaps the small stones that start an avalanche); and that's not even mentioning Minas Tirith. Indeed, his Ring is said to amplify his own power to influence.-D

Gandalf never foresaw that his pressing Bilbo into the dwarves' service to reclaim the Lonely Mountain would have such far reaching effects. Though he does not pronounce upon the issue, his intent was surely to restore the Lonely Mountain and the Kingdom of Dale, at the same time as destroying Smaug. The Ring never figured into it, until Bilbo told him of the Ring. Gandalf and others foresaw the rising of the Shadow, (the Necromancer) and having a strong dwarven kingdom in the north served to protect the northern flank of Rohan and Gondor. Indeed, without Dale and the Lonely Mountain, and the dwarves of the Iron Hills, the north may have been utterly lost during the War of the Ring. To use Gandalf's words, "not even the very wise can see all ends", and the restoration of the dwarven kingdom at the Lonely Mountain was simply the icing on the cake. The finding of the Ring was the true victory of that quest, for the Ring had already betrayed Gollum and was waiting to be found by one of the servants of the Great Goblin, and would have then been taken to Sauron.

Gandalf's influence served to bolster the races of Middle Earth, but had he more power, they would have more likely served him and not striven as hard as they did. His lack of power is what made him truly powerful, because his power to influence created more strength in those he counselled than what his power to rule would have. This is an illustration of one of the Christian themes that Tolkien explored throughout his work (the concept that when a person is weak, and admits it, there God shows strength).

It is when people pursue power in Middle Earth that they fall (Saruman, Boromir (though redeemed at the end), Denethor, Grima) to the Shadow (which is the flip side of the Christian theme mentioned above). Though this is pure speculation, perhaps this is what happened to the blue Istari. THAT is a story I have long wished had been told, but alas, never will be.

[Marky Lazer]

For speculation sakes let us assume the Blue Wizards were really corrupted into Sauron's power; I'd say this makes Radagast a way more interesting character than everyone believes him to be...