[Huttman]

Meesa back! Well, actually I've been back several times to read posts and I have to say this thread has some great, loaded questions here. I've done some thinking on these before I wanted to respond with my take. While I have read very few EU books, the Zahn trilogy (been so long I don't really remember much) and some of the 'Tales of' books, my reponse will be from just the knowledge of the movies and my own understanding of things. Here goes...

Originally Posted by Harleyquin

Ok so by default he’s the Jedi Grand Master, however we have to acknowledge that he’s not had a lifetime of training and ability to access historical records like other Jedi masters did, so the question is how “good” is Luke in comparison with other Jedi master… sure Luke has a vast “innate” force ability, but without the training from early childhood how good can he be???

Well perhaps it was best that he did not have the same training as the pre-clone wars Jedi as the teaching was not pure in that it was breeding haughtiness and a bad sense of contentment that allowed corruption to creep into the government and the Jedi order itself. Luke learned from Ben and Yoda after these events took place, and it was after the clone wars that they themselves had learned of their own mistakes. If Luke did not learn from youth up but learned a more pure essence of the force (he was also the offspring of one of the most powerful force-users ever), then the time spent was not as relevent. Quality, not quantity.

Originally Posted by Harleyquin

My main question / discussion point here is just how useful are the modern Jedi in comparison to the old order??? The old order had a thousand years + of knowledge and training the new Jedi just have what Luke knows plus discovering things for themselves.

Refer to answer above and this - I believe the Force will teach you, you just need a guide to start you off whose learned himself, and hopefully it was a good one. A Jedi apprentice will learn from his master and continue on himself with the Force as his guide. The Sith will dominate their apprentice until one kills the other. On a personal note, I've said this before, but I would really like to see why the Sith became in the first place. It would make an outstanding new trilogy. I still have yet to look into the KotOR, perhaps someday.

Originally Posted by Harleyquin

What I’m inelegantly saying is that this is a self defeating society – sooner or later it will collapse in on itself due to the fact that some bright sparks going to realise that all they have to do is keep learning the dark side and kill all the other Sith to basically become the all powerful dark master.

A house divided collapses in on itself. Yes, you are right. Becoming the all powerful Dark Master and keeping it is, in essence, what every Sith tries for. It is a greed that is never satisfied. Palpatine did not have one apprentice, he had one after the other. Yes, even he conjectured that Vader was going to become more powerful than him, but whether it was because of Vader's crippled body or that is the nature of the Sith, Palpatine did try to replace Vader with Luke. It does not make sense to rational thinking because it is self defeating. Our world does not make sense because it also is self defeating, the reasons being sooo numerous and obvious, but I will not go into that here unless asked to do so. I do love the idealogical similarities between the two, though, even tried starting a thread but it did not seem too popular. Next...

Originally Posted by Harleyquin

We read the books, watch the movie etc and we realise quite early that the dark side seems much more powerful that the light side… after all it only took one Sith lord to blind the entire “master” Jedi council to the future while he went merrily on his way.

I like how you put that-merrily on his way.

Originally Posted by Harleyquin

For me this has always been a problem. The way I think of the Darkside is passion and strong emotion – so when your in a blazing fury and rage for sure you’re a hell of a lot stronger than other people but that fury is unfocused – it makes to think less and more vulnerable to people who aren’t in that rage – if a level headed person simply avoids the crushing attacks they could win – but only if they keep avoiding the attacks. So Jedi are “weaker” than dark side users simply because there focused and always in control of their actions, whether this is or weakness I’d love peoples thoughts on it – indeed if people even consider the dark side in the same way I do.

There is a proverb that says - 'He that is slow to anger is better thatn a mighty man, and he that is controlling his spirit than the man capturing a city.' Another point, martial arts. Many martial arts do not center on attack, but teach how to use the aggressors anger, attack, and strength against him. Using the Force is more than just a symbolic power level meter like that in video games. It is a teaching of a way of life. Motive is one of the key elements to this teaching. Without the proper motive, well, while there is no place of eternal torment, I'm sure you've heard where some good intentions are paved to.

Originally Posted by Harleyquin

what makes the dark side so irretrievable? Yoda was proven wrong with the comment of “once you start down the dark path, forever will it control your destiny” bla bla … Vader came back, Luke came back, Kip came back – all seduced to the dark side – all came back to the light side.

Well, it is true from a certain point of view. It would have been irresponsible for Yoda to say to Luke, come back, you can, especially at that point in his training. And unless I've missed something in the EU, no one had come back yet from the dark side, and I'm not really sure Luke went to the dark side in RotJ, myself. His anger was to defend his sister, not himself, good motive there. IF he went farther in his emotions than even he liked, he quickly made the decision to say up yours to the Emperor. I'm a firm believer in that it is not so much as to making a mistake, but what we do right afterwards that makes all the difference. How would the world have turned out if Adam or Eve would have owned up to there mistake instead of blaming others is maybe an example you can relate to, whether you put stock in that or not. Truth be told, once you understand the dark side, there really is no coming back, even if you should shun it and follow a right course. There will always be the knowledge there of what you have done and what is ugly in life will be that much more real. On the flip side to that, if you can leave it behind, you will stick to the light side with that much more conviction and would be a good advocate for, 'don't go there, man, it really sucks, trust me, I know.'