Violence in literature

[I, Brian]

After passionate discussions on the issue relating to George R R Martin's use of rape in a particular scene, I'd like to open the discussion into a general appraisal of use of violence in science fiction & fantasy literature.

When many story arcs involve violence, to what degree must the reader see suffering?

Additionally, as Stalin is famously quoted as saying: "A death is a tragedy, a million deaths a statistic". Does this mean that dealing with individual experience of violence - whether murder, rape, or genocide - needs to be handled entirely differently to references of mass violence?

On top of this, where we see violent themes handled in literature, are there particular instances or authors where these are handled especially well? Conversely, where is it badly used?

Anyway, a starter discussion on violence in SFF lit...

[ravenus]

China Mieville's Perdido Street Station is a brilliant example of violence in theme and execution handled well. You see the characters getting brutalized both physically and emotionally and it affects you tremendously as a reader.

[Balfa]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Additionally, as Stalin is famously quoted as saying: "A death is a tragedy, a million deaths a statistic". Does this mean that dealing with individual experience of violence - whether murder, rape, or genocide - needs to be handled entirely differently to references of mass violence?

- It's true. When there are monumental battles and great heroes described in a book it is often forgotten that it's involves a death of a thousands men, women and children. When we have a scene like the one with the raping it helps a reader to understand what kind of events are indeed happening there. I mean, history of humankind is one big horror story of violence with scenes much more shocking then the particular one. It doesn't mean we have to enjoy it but turning heads and prettending that sometnig like that didn't happen is stupid.

[Priv8eye]

I suppose in many ways it depends on how the violence is presented and what we take away from it.

I have not reads the rape scene in question, but if it is presented as a good thing, something that we should take pride in, then it is not a good idea and poorly presented. If it is given to show the harm, and not meerly as an excuse for a gratuitous sex scene, then it may have merit in some form.

Same with a lot of the violence in books, how is it presented, how do the characters feel about it and how is it ment to make us feel? Are we asked to feel about it at all? Do we support our heroes only, thus passing over the fact that they have killed many innocent soldiers, or can we see both sides of the tale.

Terry Pratchet started his Guards Guards with a dedication to the town guards who are always killed of by the hero in the opening chapter of a book or film, for no other purpose than to show how 'good' he is, and then made his characters in the story the type who avoided trouble normally (more realistic view of these people? - certainly in Terry Pratchett way).

If you want your story to have 'real' edge then i suppose that violence may well be apart of that tale and has to be shown in some way. Perhaps it is a braver writer who shows the effects of this violence, in these very personal, one on one moments, as opposed to just brushing over them and making them faceless.

[Sibeling]

I think that in a way it is good that authors depict this "individual violence". If a great battle is described, the readers pay attention to the heroism and not to the fact that killing peole is wrong. The description of violence directed against an individual will have an emotional impact on the reader and make the reader feel sympathy to the characters.

[kyektulu]

I honestly dont mind the use of violence in literature of any sort, we cannot keep sheilding ourselves from it.
Violence in its many forms are as rife in the world today as it has ever been.
It isnt always pleasent reading brutal depraved violence yet I know such things happen and as a society we need to be exposed to such things and learn from them.

[Rosemary]

I have read the GRRM's series in question. It seemed to me that the story itself was set in something similar to Medieval times, where rapes were quite common. In the context of his story I felt there was nothing remarkable about that. Certainly I do not condone rape in our times but I do not think that reading his book will automatically make people think they can do the same. Are the battles, killings, assassinations and incest of which Martin writes, any less brutal than rape. I must admit I am not too keen on the 'blood and guts' part of any story but if I felt that it was 'over the top' then I would not read it. To date, I do not think I have had to stop reading a Fantasy or Science Fiction book because of that.
However, for me, a Fantasy series is fantasy, nothing more, nothing less.

There are also the Historical Fiction books to take into account - A Tale of Two Cities for example with it's guillotine. Violence and killing again, yet this is considered a 'classic' boook. Would it have become so, if the guillotine was not mentioned in the story?

[Thadlerian]

I think the question is whether the violence might be percieved as a good thing or not. If it's the protagonist, does the writer intend him to be a role model? Is there a questionability written between the lines? I think the intention of the writer has everything to say.

But I dislike it when it goes excess, when it doesn't tell me anything new about the character, or adds to the story. Violence just for the sake of punching in ever and again how evil this or that guy is... well, it's just boring, and I tend to skip paragraphs when I get a feeling we're going in that direction (which might explain why I can't recall the controversial rape scene from ASoIaF - hmm...).

Books like Neverwhere (Mr. Croup and Mr. Vandemar) suffer from this.

[Teresa Edgerton]

When a book brings up an issue of which the reader was not aware -- or presents it in such a way that the reader's awareness is heightened for the first time -- yes, people become sensitized to an issue, and they may, for the first time, be moved to take action. Uncle Tom's Cabin is a good example of that. So are several books by Charles Dickens, which made people aware of some appalling things that were going on right under their noses -- Oliver Twist and Nicholas Nickleby, for instance. (On the other hand, Dickens did manage to write many books that are still classics without any violence in them at all, so I'm not sure that I understand Rosemary's argument. Unless she was saying that the story wouldn't have said much about the French Revolution if it had left out the guillotine, which is certainly true.)

But a steady diet of violence -- whether it be in literature, or on TV, or in video games, or as it was shortly before Dickens's time, when people used to go watch the public executions for entertainment -- does not sensitize people, it has just the opposite effect. Does it make them want to go out and commit violent acts themselves -- no, that's not the issue. Does it make them more willing to tolerate violence, does it make them less compassionate, yes. You can see the desensitization process at work, in how books and movies have to become more and more violent in order to produce the same dramatic effect. You can see it in the escalating cruelty of high school students, where the teasing and hazing that was always present has become more brutal and sustained. You can see it in the fact that the President of the United States proposes that we reinstate judicial torture, and rather than a storm of outrage it provokes only scattered protest.

I don't think that anyone here is saying that any one scene in any one book is creating a problem all by itself. One particular scene in one particular book has come up for discussion as a gateway to the issue because some readers consider it a particularly egregious example and because it's in a book that many people here have read -- it makes a handy reference point.

My own concern is that there appear to be more and more readers whose whole literary diet is made up of books that are similarly violent -- who say (I realize that they may be overstating the case in the heat of the argument, but this is what they say) they have stopped reading books that are less dark and violent because they are too boring, too unrealistic. Who scoff at anything less "gritty" as fluff or "feel-good nonsense."

How can somebody say something like that and then turn around and argue that the books they read aren't influencing their concept of reality? But even if it's the other way around -- if someone already takes a dark and fatalistic view of the world, is it a good thing to only read books that reenforce this? Shouldn't we all be willing to also read books that challenge our preconceived notions, that open up our minds to other possibilities? Isn't that what science fiction and fantasy are supposed to be about?

[Foxbat]

Stephen Donaldson (particularly his 'Gap' series) relies on violence in his stories to shape his characters. I have to admit The Real Story (part one of the Gap series) in particular, seemed to go over the top in the violence stakes, but subsequent volumes (I feel) showed how this violent beginning shaped the characters and their decision making.

I did feel that the violence was somewhat justified as it served a purpose in character development. Violence for violence's sake, however, is something that I would not find worthy of reading.

I agree with Kelpie's point that we can easily become inured to violence when it is used just to fill in the pages of a book. For this reason, it is a subject (I believe) which must be treated with the utmost care if used as part of a plotline.

[Jason_Taverner]

The only violent theme I find uncomfortable in a book is rape mainly because I have found it has been used as a shock factor just to raise the bar in volence although this won't stop me reading the book I always feel in most settings it is not needed to help the tone of the story or help set the atmosphere and it is used mainly to shock

[Prefx]

The first story I ever finished was a first-person account of a rapist. I don't mean to insult anyone here, or to open up closed wounds, but I (dare I say?) attempted to make the main character someone the reader could feel sorry for, while feeling repulsed. Needless to say, the story is about 90,000 words long, is written to my best ability, and has yet to be published. Why? Well, I haven't tried.

The problem is, I feel, most markets do not appreciate violence to such a degree. Rape, abortions, and other things are touchy subjects for many, causing problems for both reader and author.

Just look at how much controversy young adult writers are causing these days by putting VIOLENCE. We've gone a long way from Narnia to Harry Potter (to some books that even include sex and rape!)

[rune]

Im either very liberal minded or Im not easy fazed. But sex and voilence in books dont bother me one jot. In fact I quite like a good fight if it's well written I would say I dont like over indulgence of violence in books, because it spoils the story. Much better to have a few well crafted fighting scenes, and write in an undertone to violence if needed. China Mieville is a good example of that

When it comes to sex, again, if it's well written no problem with me. Can't say Im keen on rape in a book though, don't see the point to be honest.

One thing I really dont like is cruelty to animals in books, and fortunately Ive read very few books that include this.

Does this reflect on my state of mind or character. Perhaps so. I'm not surprised when there is violence in life, so perhaps that's why I dont bother about it in books.

Ive read horror novels since i was a young teen and watched horror movies from a similiar age. I dont feel it's affected me badly, Ive never felt the urge to harm anyone.

[GOLLUM]

Just face it Rune, you're the original PARTY ANIMAL!......

[nixie]

Sometimes I read and I'm horrified with the scene that unfolds before my eyes,does this make me stop reading,no.Do I pause and think about it,rarely. There are some scenes of sex and violence that have made me stop and and think. One that springs to mind is the prologue of Ash a Secret History.The rape of 8 year old Ash in the opening paragraphs made me feel so disgusted that I seriously considered not finishing the book but I carried on and the book is now one of my favourites.
I don't think violence in books makes me less immune to violence in the real world.Sometimes it makes me more aware of it.