[C Of K]

Very insightful post, Harley. (Too insightful, perhaps?) I have no easy, or sure answer for any of it, really.

Originally Posted by Harleyquin

My main question / discussion point here is just how useful are the modern Jedi in comparison to the old order??? The old order had a thousand years + of knowledge and training the new Jedi just have what Luke knows plus discovering things for themselves.

Difficult to compare jedi knights of different eras. Extensive training would be important, but members of the old jedi order were more fallible than the general mystique surrounding them as is true with the new. As far as powers are concerned, a few jedi in both eras were outstanding. That's where I think the answer can be found. Durring the clone wars, Yoda, Windu, and Anakin were perhaps among the most powerful. In Luke's time, he would be considered among that number, along with Kyp and the Solo children.

Anakin became (perhaps) the greatest hero of the clone wars not because he had so much training, but because it was easier for him to draw on the force than it was for other jedi. Hence, it was often the case that circumstances required Anakin to bail many of the jedi out of trouble. The same would go for the new jedi order. While a thousand years worth of teaching is irreplaceable, on a level of shear power, there are jedi of the new order that are more capable than jedi of the old.

In the extended universe, Luke has endured about thirty or more years of war (I'm guessing here, but it's close to thirty) Thirty years of dealing with life, death, struggle, and the force itself. Not many jedi throughout history can claim that. Many jedi who lived hundreds of years wouldn't have had to deal with antagonists that were so focused for so long. Luke may have discovered powers that older jedi never thought of.

Originally Posted by Harleyquin

What I’m inelegantly saying is that this is a self defeating society – sooner or later it will collapse in on itself due to the fact that some bright sparks going to realise that all they have to do is keep learning the dark side and kill all the other Sith to basically become the all powerful dark master.

I'm uncertain how much of a perversion Vader and Sidious actually were. I think for the most part they took the path of the darkside to its inevitable ending (all roads lead to Rome in this instance) The darkside is supposed to embrace an attitude of selfishness. Why Darth Pleagueis, a man who could live forever, felt the need to train an apprentice I have no idea. But Sidious' purpose for Vader was clear. Vader served the same purpose as the Death Star. He was an element of fear, that would eventually lead people to fear the Emperor and the empire. Sidious knew that if he neglected Vader's instruction, he would always have the secrets Vader wanted. Plagueis the "not so" wise, foolishly squandered this advantage over Sidious.

Originally Posted by Harleyquin

We read the books, watch the movie etc and we realise quite early that the dark side seems much more powerful that the light side… after all it only took one Sith lord to blind the entire “master” Jedi council to the future while he went merrily on his way. In the books you see dark Jedi taking on two three and four light siders and happily taking them on or even better perverting them to the dark side.

I'm still debating with myself over this, to tell you the truth. It does seem the dark is stronger, but it really depends on circumstances, and the reason certain things were happening. I'm not sure how much blinding Sidious actually did. I think the jedi might have been blinding themselves. While trying to use the light, they were serving a corrupt government. From this point of view, the basis for almost every act they made could have attributed to strengthening the darkside. In this way, they made Sidious stronger by giving him almost complete control over them, diminishing their perception regarding the will of the force.

I think Darth Maul and Count Dooku were easily able to dispatch many jedi may be because most jedi weren't trained to fight enemies wielding lightsabers. Maul had been trained specifically for that purpose. Simply put, he was a weapon in the purest sense. The jedi had to master so many different avenues of dealing with others before they even considered pulling a lightsaber on someone as a last resort. Not only that, but most of them were trained to deflect blaster bolts, since they believed the sith lords were all extinct. Dooku also used a lightsaber style that would usually give him an advantage over most jedi. Of course, Anakin was able to defeat him with a display of raw power, and perhaps by even touching the darkside himself.

Originally Posted by Harleyquin

So Jedi are “weaker” than dark side users simply because there focused and always in control of their actions, whether this is or weakness I’d love peoples thoughts on it – indeed if people even consider the dark side in the same way I do.

Well, just as the stronger person, isn't always the stronger fighter, I'd have to say that weakness in a battle is defined by the person with the disadvantage no matter what it may be. A certain stronger person may be too slow to successfully defeat a smaller person. But I believe that physically, Anakin was perhaps the strongest jedi when he drew on the force. I think he could probably hit harder, and move faster than any of them. I'm not positive of this, but while reading about his duel with Dooku in episode three, I don't think it mattered how angry Dooku got, he wouldn't have been able to match Anakin strength for strength.

Originally Posted by Harleyquin

Finally and I’ll make this the last point for now – what makes the dark side so irretrievable? Yoda was proven wrong with the comment of “once you start down the dark path, forever will it control your destiny” bla bla … Vader came back, Luke came back, Kip came back – all seduced to the dark side – all came back to the light side.

Well, the Timothy Zahn books gives an interesting interpretation of all of this (as far as Luke goes, anyway) It suggests, that even after Luke returned, the darkside influenced his actions to some degree. Perhaps, had he not turned to the darkside to begin with, the new jedi order may have had more prosperous beginnings. Perhaps he even would have been a stronger teacher, and a stronger jedi altogether. Kyp, for his part, has always been somewhat of a rogue. He never seems to learn his lesson Vader returned, but paid a heavy price, and even then was unable to undue his reputation within galactic circles. So pretty much each of these individuals are responsible for irreversible actions on some level.

Originally Posted by Harleyquin

So Since we know Luke was both light and dark wouldn’t it have made sense for him to scrap the “old” Jedi ways and teach both light and dark techniques but also have “moral” training as well to teach new Jedi how to switch From dark force and light force as and when the situation arises

Quite an idea. Since Luke has learned some of the darkside, I think he fears it. That fear no doubt influences his life, how he trains others, and how he behaves. I doubt that he trusts himself completely with the knowledge he has, although the doctrine that there really was no darkside did surface for a while among the jedi. Of course, this contradicts George Lucas' vision in someways, but in some ways it does not. It may be that there is a force of energy with a purpose, pure and simple, and the darkness only comes from individuals who learn different pathways to power that are embraced through anger, fear, and aggression. Or there may actually be a dark power separate from the individual