Rhaegar's book

[pan naranus]

Bran and Ricon as far as the world is concernd. ariya as well for most. siriyo forell for some of us. (sorry for misspelling names)

[KiwiBird]

thats different, those the readers almost certainly knew wether they where alive or no.

[viZion]

Originally Posted by KiwiBird

We have Catelyn, we have the others, We had Beric Dondarrion, who else?

I think Gregor Clegane is a good bet, too. The Others don't count since that falls into the category of "monster". That's already three too many by my count.

I believe you can also count Bran and Arya (Rickon is probably too young) since the world believes them dead. So in the character's eyes they will miraculously return to play their parts in saving the day. The reason I don't have a problem with them is because they are characters GRRM is actively following with the intention of bringing them back later on to the world at large. We know them, we can guess at their purposes, it's fine.

Where I would have a problem is baby Aegon suddenly appearing to save the day after we've had no indication that he's alive and, if he is alive, we certainly haven't gotten to know him. If it happened it would be way too much of a deus ex machina for me and I would be disappointed. Fortunately, I don't think GRRM will do it. He respects his story too much to have something so convenient happen like that. I personally think he was trying to mess with people's heads when he made his comments about Rhaenys definitely being dead but left out Aegon.

Honestly, can you imagine:

Dany: Aw, crap! We need another head!
Jon: Heh, heh, I've got a spare head here....
Dany: *groan*
GRRM: BEHOLD AND WONDER FOR I PRESENT BABY AEGON CONVENIENTLY ARRIVING IN THE NICK OF TIME TO AID IN YON QUEST TO SMITE ALL FOES!
Dany: Woot!
Jon: Aw, man ...*laces up his breeches*

[KiwiBird]

Like i said, i feel that those character are different, since we as the readers bassically know that they are alive. unlike Aegon, whom we as readers think dead.

[viZion]

Originally Posted by KiwiBird

Like i said, i feel that those character are different, since we as the readers bassically know that they are alive. unlike Aegon, whom we as readers think dead.

I think you missed my point entirely. It doesn't matter though so long as Aegon stays dead. Let the characters solve their problems with who and what they have now. I'd hate to see that kid come out of nowhere in the 6th or 7th book. Let poor Tyrion be a head of the dragon. Someone needs to cut him a break.

[Charming Serpent]

I concur. I think personally, that perhaps some of us have thought something we shouldnt have thought as definate i.e that the dragon having 3 heads MUST all be Targaryen. Perhaps that is not the case. Remember, Jorah Mormont told Dany that the dragon had 3 heads and Aegon had his two sisters and then he offered to be in the role of that and as one of her husbands. I'm sure we all agree that Tyrion's thoughts and comments about wanting to ride a dragon will come to fruition. I just can't see GRRM not having that happen.

In my opinion, Jon, Dany and Tyrion will be the 3 heads of the Dragon. Unless there is something monumental upcoming in the next 3 books?

[KiwiBird]

You dont have to exagerate when it comes to poor Tyrion, he is still a son of one of the most powerful houses in westeros.

[viZion]

Originally Posted by KiwiBird

You dont have to exagerate when it comes to poor Tyrion, he is still a son of one of the most powerful houses in westeros.

And his family has treated him so well that he obviously has no right to complain.

[KiwiBird]

so he didn't get 'along' well with his sister and father. it is not like tywin pulled a sam. he still had jaime as well. his life as a son was fairly easy no matter how you look at it. especially being born dwarf. (in comparison to the comon that is)

i like tyrion, he makes me laugh, but i do get the bit about it being annoying that he goes on and on about all his misfortunes. so certain things where less then nice. that doesn't mean his life in the whole has been bad.

[viZion]

I think you're saying that since he grew up rich and in a life of privelege he had it easy. You can correct me if I'm wrong. Money doesn't buy happiness though. Emotional abuse runs very deep and Tyrion has been emotionally abused his entire life. His father doesn't love him and basically tells him so to his face. His sister hates him and even his loving brother commits his most horrible act against Tyrion. The people of King's Landing hate him simply because he's a dwarf i.e. different. Is there one single character in the entire book, other than Pod, that actually likes Tyrion and isn't being paid to like him? You don't think that hurts?

[Shacklock]

Originally Posted by KiwiBird

so he didn't get 'along' well with his sister and father. it is not like tywin pulled a sam. he still had jaime as well. his life as a son was fairly easy no matter how you look at it. especially being born dwarf. (in comparison to the comon that is)

i like tyrion, he makes me laugh, but i do get the bit about it being annoying that he goes on and on about all his misfortunes. so certain things where less then nice. that doesn't mean his life in the whole has been bad.

He's what we call Emo. Upper class but still whines about his crap life whole loads of people have it worse off xD

[Boaz]

Originally Posted by viZion

Let poor Tyrion be a head of the dragon. Someone needs to cut him a break.

Ser Ilyn was scheduled to cut him.

viz, I'm on Kiwi's side on this one.

Yes, Tyrion was emotionally tortured by Tywin and Cersei. He never had a mother. Jaime betrayed him in his secret heart. His very life was threatened by Joffrey.

But Tyrion also had a big brother to defend him. A father who went to war for him. Wealth. Power. A tremendous intellect. Authority as the Hand of the King.

Is it incumbent upon someone else to find happiness and contentment for Tyrion? Who will this person be? How will they know it's their life's duty to make Tyrion happy?

Tyrion's joy of heart and peace of mind can only come from Tyrion.

Suppose when Jaime told Tyrion about Tysha that Tyrion said, "Oh Jaime, I know father's such a jerk. You must have felt immense pressure to comply and to never defy him. I probably would have done the same thing in your shoes." At that point Tyrion was beyond empathy, he was full of hatred and he gave into it.

Can Tyrion pull out of this on his own? I doubt it. He needs someone to show him love and trust. No one besides Cersei and Jaime owe him this kind of support... Cersei will never do it... Jaime might, but Tyrion would have to be very contrite.

Tyrion might find himself a girl... he might trust her... but then again maybe not. He is now full of malice and hate. Until he decides to try to rid himself of all his anger, he'll never find peace with another person.

Now, do you think with Tyrion's love of books that he will find Rhaegar's book in the Free Cities? What about Sam in Oldtown? Sam loves books and Aemon tried to put him on the right track.

[viZion]

I don't think his father went to war for but rather but rather because there's no way Tywin could stand the slight to his name. But that's really beside the point anyway .

Is it incumbent upon someone else to find happiness and contentment for Tyrion? Who will this person be? How will they know it's their life's duty to make Tyrion happy?

Heh, the only person qualified is GRRM himself. My comment about letting Tyrion be a head of the dragon was in jest. I don't agree that Tyrion had it made just because he's a Lannister but I'm really not trying to say he should be granted a dragon by GRRM because of it. There are plenty of characters in this series who get a raw deal.

My memory is a bit hazy about the exact details of Tyrion going to find Dany and this Rhaegar's book. I'm just not there yet in my re-read. I've heard rumors that Dany seems to be having trouble with her dragons (I haven't read the ADWD preview chapters). Maybe rather than getting his own dragon to ride, Tyrion shows up and teaches Dany how to train her dragons since he's read so much about them. Who knows? It could happen.

[Boaz]

It could. And I should admit that Tyrion is my favorite character. Personally, I'd love for him to find happiness and contentment, yet he is full of rage and he wants to vent!

[KiwiBird]

In the middle ages it was normal among the commons to immediately kill dwarves or other physically handicaped babies. This was less so the case among the higher born, that said Tywin could have easily killed Tyrion at birth, claiming he had died together with his wife because of problems during childbirth. He could have easily shut up everyone who knew differently. The fact that Tyrion as a dwarf is alive proves that tywin would only go that far in dealings with his son, regardless his reasons. Very much unlike sam's father. Personally i felt that when Tywin told Tyrion he was still planning on sending him to the wall alive and reasonable well, he was saying the truth.