Istari powers - the debate

[Raynor]

The topic of the debate is:

"Did limiting the powers of the Istari by the Valar prolong the war against Sauron? And if so, was it a wise decision of the Valar to limit their powers?"

Any Tolkien material can be used, as long as it doesn't contradict The lord of the rings book.

The two teams are:

The limiters: cornelius, Kelpie, Gwydion.

The unlimiters: HieroGlyph, Marky Lazer, Raynor.

The debate will last for two weeks, starting today; the limiters will be the first to post. Good luck .

[HieroGlyph]

*bzzzzzz*
oops!
Sorry, just testing the buzzer...

[cornelius]

well, I think limiting the powers was a good thing, as power often corrupts even the highest and purest of races... being corrupted means they can easily shift from side, turning to into a bigger threath than sauron.

I'm sorry, was I supposed to buzz before my reply?

[HieroGlyph]

Sauron goes way back in time... He's thoroughly an ugly Being. We should send the Istari to confront him fact to face and quench his old shapeshifting, squirming hides into dust! Whats wrong with confronting Sauron head on, power for power? Crush him quick. We dont need an army such as for the Wrath Of The Valar! Unite the Istari and be done with Sauron, I say!

[Raynor]

I think that the most powerful argument against the limiting of their powers if found in The Istari, Unfinished Tales:

For with the consent of Eru they sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies of as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain; though because of their noble spirits they did not die, and aged only by the cares and labours of many long years
...
Of the Blue little was known in the West, and they had no names save Ithryn Luin "the Blue Wizards;" for they passed into the East with Curunír, but they never returned, and whether they remained in the East, pursuing there the purposes for which they were sent; or perished; or as some hold were ensnared by Sauron and became his servants, is not now known. 3 But none of these chances were impossible to be; for, strange indeed though this may seem, the Istari, being clad in bodies of Middle-earth, might even as Men and Elves fall away from their purposes. and do evil, forgetting the good in the search for power to effect it.
...
For it is said indeed that being embodied the Istari had needs to learn much anew by slow experience, and though they knew whence they came the memory of the Blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off, for which (so long as they remained true to their mission) they yearned exceedingly. Thus by enduring of free will the pangs of exile and the deceits of Sauron they might redress the evils of that time.

So, by limiting their natural maiar abilities, the istari lose a good deal of the memory of Valinor, are subject to "fears and pains and weariness of earth", hunger and thirst - no doubt this hinders their mission.

Moreover, from Osanwe kenta:

The Incarnates have by the nature of mind the same faculties (as the valar); but their perception is dimmed by the hröa (body), for their fëa (spirit) is united to their hröa and its normal procedure is through the hröa, which is in itself part of Eä, without thought. The dimming is indeed double; for thought has to pass one mantle of hröa and penetrate another. For this reason in Incarnates transmission of thought requires strengthening to be effective.

Therefore, the istari have severely decreased ways of communication among themselves.

And now, for a rather important point, found in Laws and customs of the Eldar, HoME X:

But even as the Men and Elves are not as we, the valar, (who came from beyond Arda wholly and in all our being) but are both spirit and body, and that body is of Arda and by Arda was nourished: so the Shadow worketh not only upon spirits, but has marred the very hron of Arda, and all Middle-earth is perverted by the evil of Melkor, who has wrought in it as mightily as any one among us here. Therefore none of those who awoke in Middle-earth, and there dwelt before they came hither, have come here wholly free

Even if the Istari didn't awake in Middle-Earth, they still had a "real" body, and therefore, even if the body was "pure" at the begining, it would have felt the influence of the marring which is general outside the land of the gods. And the ultimate effect of this marring of the body can be, in my opinion, moral corruption, a thing we definitely see in Saruman.

Being subject to fear makes one desire security - I might say more: power to preserver one self or to preseve one's status. Again, I believe that having a "human" body accelerated Saruman's desire for earthly powers - and his demise.

For the other wizards - if you suddenly lose your Valinorean stature and assume a condition which is almost unfamiliar with you, you are likely to underperform.

According to The third age, RotK:

c:1100
The Wise (the Istari and the chief Eldar) discover that an evil power has made a stronghold at Dol Guldur. It is thought to be one of the Nazgûl.

Now, would it have taken _100_ year to a maia to discover that evil operates in Dol Guldur? Wouldn't a maia discover that sooner, and in much greater detail, i.e. not confound Sauron for a nazgul?
At the Council of Elrond, FotR, Gandalf says

Some, too, will remember also that Saruman dissuaded us from open deeds against him, and for long we watched him only. Yet at last, as his shadow grew, Saruman yielded, and the Council put forth its strength and drove the evil out of Mirkwood and that was in the very year of the finding of this Ring: a strange chance, if chance it was. But we were too late, as Elrond foresaw. Sauron also had watched us, and had long prepared against our stroke, governing Mordor from afar through Minas Morgul, where his Nine servants dwelt, until all was ready. Then he gave way before us, but only feigned to flee, and soon after came to the Dark Tower and openly declared himself. Then for the last time the Council met; for now we learned that he was seeking ever more eagerly for the One. We feared then that he had some news of it that we knew nothing of. But Saruman said nay, and repeated what he had said to us before: that the One would never again be found in Middle-earth...There I was at fault. I was lulled by the words of Saruman the Wise; but I should have sought for the truth sooner, and our peril would now be less.

Wouldn't Olorin (Gandalf in his natural, maiar form) be aware of the lies of Saruman, and act sooner, so as to really catch Sauron off-guard?

[Teresa Edgerton]

But what is 100 years to a Vala or a Maia in full possession of his faculties? Supposing "Olorin" had figured out the whole Dol Guldur situation sooner, would he necessarily have acted any sooner than "Gandalf" did? The Ainur are not without compassion, but when you look at some of the timelines for the events in the Silmarillion, you can see that they allowed Melkor to inflict immense suffering on elves and men between their own sporadic attempts to put an end to his activities. By incarnating in bodies that endure the suffering and sorrows of other beings in Middle Earth as well as some of their limitations, the Istari would become more aware of the passage of time and of the fortunes of individuals within that time. It brought them down into what you might call a more human timescale, so that they would act accordingly.

Also, the Valar had essentially washed their hands of Middle Earth when they moved the Blessed Realm beyond the Circles of the World, sending the Istari at all was a last concession on their part. The peoples who lived in Middle Earth needed to learn how to deal with Sauron (or the next oppressor and tyrant who came along) themselves, without relying on the immortals -- who weren't going to intervene again and again on their behalf. So the Istari were sent to teach and advise and inspire, rather than do battle with their old associate Gorthaur the Cruel directly. The spectacle of five Maiar showing up in their own forms and powers to take on Sauron and his minions was not going to teach Iluvatar's mortal children any useful lessons.

And the strategy worked, because it wasn't a Gandalf or a Radagast or a Blue Wizard that destroyed the Ring or won the war, it was Men and Hobbits (with a little help on the sidelines from Elves and Dwarves and Ents) who eventually stood up and took care of things themselves.

[HieroGlyph]

(HG mumbles 'hmnhmm...should have told Manwe about that...')


[While I was cogitating and digesting Raynors reply, Kelpie >>> So, I did mean Raynor! ]

[HieroGlyph]

Originally Posted by Kelpie

... So the Istari were sent to teach and advise and inspire, rather than do battle with their old associate Gorthaur the Cruel directly...

If this is a given, then our debate is moot, fellow advisors!

The one thousandth year of Middle-Earth's third age is yet to arrive and we are emissaries with hope to guide the 'mission' of the Heren Istarion...

[Teresa Edgerton]

Originally Posted by HieroGlyph

If this is a given, then our debate is moot, fellow advisors!

Well ... yes. It's because I take it as a given that I align myself with the Limiters.

If the Valar just wanted to put down Sauron, they could have sent a Vala like Tulkas to whip his scrawny Maia posterior.

[HieroGlyph]

Yes. Sorry. I was just thinking from an 'unlimiters' point of view, i.e. unlimited ability to roll back time to a point where it ISNT decided what the Istari can, are, or will do. If you get my meaning.

I'll have to adjust my, er, vocal perspective and use the 'we should have done this to achieve this' kind of debate

[Raynor]

So the Istari were sent to teach and advise and inspire, rather than do battle with their old associate Gorthaur the Cruel directly

Yes they were; one example I already cited - the white council which drives the necromancer out of Mirkwood. And there are also the battles at the pellenor fields and in front of the black gate, where Gandalf has an important _fighting_ role.

Supposing "Olorin" had figured out the whole Dol Guldur situation sooner, would he necessarily have acted any sooner than "Gandalf" did?

Yes, because that was his role - to oppose Sauron.

[Raynor]

(I am sorry for the double posts, perhaps a mod could merge them).
I think it is worth recapitulating what happened to all the istari (I am quoting from Letter #156 to R. Murray):

The 'wizards', as such, had failed; or if you like: the crisis had become too grave and needed an enhancement of power

Either the valar perceived that the crisis would become such grave indeed and sent them unsuited for it (well, which would prove my teams poing), either they didn't have the wisdom to make such a prediction (idem ). But, as it is said, the wizards _failed_. What about the success of Gandalf?

Of course he remains similar in personality and idiosyncrasy, but both his wisdom and power are much greater

If Eru himself grants him more power, and if the others failed - he definitely needed more of his initial maia stature - one more reason which for the design of the valar concerning the istari was flawed:

He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure.

Even though, in many ocasions, Gandalf fights, he would have needed his maia-like abilities (esspecially his wisdom/knowledge) for more peaceful actions against the enemy.

[HieroGlyph]

Originally Posted by Kelpie

...If the Valar just wanted to put down Sauron, they could have sent a Vala like Tulkas to whip his scrawny Maia posterior.

I was not paying attention once again!!!

The above is more an admission of what the Valar aught to have done, is it not? You've just argued against your teams standing!

Well, I have to say, I wasnt thinking of sending a Vala to intervene with Sauron, ney. Five Maia in the form of the Edain, united in purpose. With knowledge of who they are. With knowledge of the spirit within them. Upon an Oath. Call it the Oath of the Istari. Each answerable to the other.

There was the White Council, was there not? This idea I have is to extend the powers of that Council. To shape it with a specific purpose. That of opposing the rising of Sauron once that cursed ring HAS been found anew, for it shall be found and it SHALL seek its master, this we know of Saurons power. And this we know of how he subverts all other to his own will. We must oppose that will.

We must send the Istari with this sole purpose. And not interfere with the peoples of the Edain that remain nor those others that dwell in Middle-Earth. What say you against such a plan?

To limit the Istari to the form of Man, unless at the direst of needs, is folly. Sauron is cruel and patient. Without stronger opposition to his might and cunning we place all the rest of Middle-Earth at risk!

[Teresa Edgerton]

Originally Posted by HieroGlyph

The above is more an admission of what the Valar aught to have done, is it not? You've just argued against your teams standing!!

Not at all, it just emphasizes that a quick end to Sauron was not their goal.


Raynor, I still contend that if Gandalf had been thinking as a Maia he would have been, essentially, on Valinor time, and therefore there's no guarantee that he would have acted sooner in regard to Sauron, Saruman, or anything else, even if he had caught on sooner.

And may I say that your very argument that the Valar made a mistake just shows that Gandalf as Olorin (a mere Maia) would not necessarily have been as clever about working things out as you indicate.

As for actual fighting, yes, Gandalf does fight: to defend himself, his friends, and the people around him -- but not directly against Sauron at the Pelennor Fields or before the Black Gate. And I don't believe Tolkien ever says exactly what part Gandalf and Saruman played when the White Council drove the Necromancer/Sauron out of the Dol Guldur. For all we know, they may simply have been there advising and encouraging Galadriel and the rest.

In the end, even coming back with enhanced powers, Gandalf's role is such that he still does his important work through others -- and the very most important thing, the destruction of the Ring, was accomplished through a series of events he set in motion as Gandalf the Grey.

I particularly like a phrase in that older Istari thread HieroGlyph resurrected yesterday: that the wizards came as men to be emulated, rather than gods to be worshipped.

The Valar were in no hurry to dispose of Sauron -- for one thing, because everything we know about them indicates that they never were in a hurry period. But also, it's pretty obvious that Sauron in and of himself did not seem that important to them. Compared to Morgoth, he was pretty small potatoes. Though a shapeshifter himself, he didn't have his old master's ability to twist other beings into new and hideous shapes -- it wasn't Sauron who turned Elves into Orcs, or manufactured dragons and firedrakes out of ... whatever. He didn't recruit other Maiar to his cause. He couldn't even have made Rings of Power without the help of Celebrimbor and his crew. As far the Valar were concerned, old Thu (as he was once known to his friends and intimates) was probably just a passing dischord in the Music.

If they had been that eager to dispose of him, they had the perfect opportunity long before, when he was captured by the Numenorians and taken to Numenor. What could have been easier at that point than extraditing him to Valinor and casting him into the void along with Melkor? They didn't even try. Which either shows that they didn't care -- or that they did care but never quite got around to it (which brings us back to what I said before about Valinor time).

The one time that they really sat up and took notice of Sauron's activities was when he seduced the Numenoreans into violating the Ban.

Which demonstrates that the one place where Sauron was able to get under their skin was in his ability to corrupt men through their own weaknesses, their own fears. That, so far as the Valar were concerned, was the real danger that he presented: that he might continue to turn men into the paths of evil to their own destruction.

And that is the danger the Istari were sent to combat -- Sauron the tempter, the deceiver, the agent of crippling despair. As teachers, advisors, examples, the wizards were there to help men (and other peoples, but particularly men since they were the most vulnerable to him) see through those deceits, abjure those temptations, and resist when resistance seemed most futile.

It wasn't a task that could be completed overnight. Nor could it be completed successfully if the Istari took too active a role.

[Teresa Edgerton]

We need some of the other participants to jump in here -- this wasn't supposed to be a three person discussion. (And I said from the beginning that I was going to have to limit my involvement.)

Come on Cornelius and Gwydion, don't leave me to hold the fort alone!