Istari powers - the debate

[Marky Lazer]

Another argument for ‘less limited’ powers lays in Saruman’s betrayal. He strived for more and more power, and therefore allied with Sauron. If, Saruman had more powers he could have better resisted the urge for power, and fight for the cause of good. Now his powers were more limited, he was easily subdued through the palantir, and went off the way of a wizard.

[HieroGlyph]

Aye.
What befell the Blue?
Where was Radagast heading?
All under the sway of Saruman who fell as a Man.
This becomes a debate resting upon the Will of all Edain.
The Valar pass judgement. It rests upon the Will of Eru.
Thus in Ea, we cannot win.

It rests upon what the Istari are to be allowed to 'teach' man. By example. Thus we (the Ainur) are assuming to take it upon ourselves that we understand the Destiny of Man. I cannot agree with this. The Gift of Eru is not for us to dally with. If we are to send the Istari, I still say we must Unite them in Purpose and oppose Sauron head on. When his head DOES arise, for we know it must...

[cornelius]

Besides a pursuit of power such as the one Saruman had may have already pointed out the "evil" inside in him ( greed, to much ambition, willing to do anything that is needed ( even going into TTT-alliance with main enemy...)) . Besides, what would he have done if he had gotten more power to start with?

[HieroGlyph]

TTT-alliance? Movies you mean>?

Please tell us what you think Saruman would have done if he had more power, Cornelius...

Marky claims greater resistance.
You must be claiming he'd fall all the same and be a more powerful adversary? Correct?

[cornelius]

like Raynor said, the "human " nature of Saruman led to his urge for power. He would want to challenge the others valar and claim sole rulership, as power is what humans seek. to proof his supremacy, he would have gone far in this surch for might. He would probably have been the first to challenge Sauron, but he would have also been the first to claim Sauron's throne. If the Istari wouldn't have limited his powers, the control over Saruman and the fear he holds towards more powerfull beings would have been gone. He'd overthrow them, and the sweet taste of victory, the feeling of superiority that comes with it, would have him turn into a Tiran. We can talk about " feelings" here, as told by Raynor.
that's my opinion on it. should read more about it, sorry if this doesn't make sense ( admitting my weakness does not mean accepting defeat)

[Marky Lazer]

I think Saruman would resist the power of the Palantir if he had greater powers. In that way he woudlnt communicate with Sauron, and wouldn't went evil.

[HieroGlyph]

We cannot say if it was the Palantir that swayed Saruman, though. Or if it was because of his human and limited form that led him to hunger for his own power.

[At least I cannot recall any specific statements saying such, by Tolkien himself. Besides, I wish a debate from how we all perceive it, if that is OK with everyone else? This allows Gwydion and Cornelius to explore reasons to keep the Istari's power limited, correct?]

[Teresa Edgerton]

Saruman's lust for power seems to go pretty far back, and I don't see any reason to believe that it was a product of his taking on a lesser form when he became an Istari. It may have manifested the moment he set foot on the shores of Middle Earth and realized the possibilities. Cirdan certainly wasn't favorably impressed with him (or why give the Ring to Gandalf instead of to the Head of the Order?) and Galadriel, too, always preferred Gandalf. There must have been something about Saruman that these two wise old Elves recognized, in their hearts, as not quite right. Had he arrived with all his powers as a Maia intact, he might have established himself as a rival power almost immediately. Then there would be, effectively, two "Saurons" for the other four wizards to deal with instead of just one.

Now if the question were, instead, did the Valar choose the right individuals to act as their emissaries, I would be arguing on the other side. But that isn't the question. And since Saruman turned out to be a very poor choice, and Eru only knows what the Blue Wizards might have been up to after they disappeared from the story, removing some of the limits from their powers could only have compounded the error.

[Raynor]

Raynor, I still contend that if Gandalf had been thinking as a Maia he would have been, essentially, on Valinor time, and therefore there's no guarantee that he would have acted sooner in regard to Sauron, Saruman, or anything else, even if he had caught on sooner.

I know of no proof concerning the fact that maiar (or valar) act more slowly outside Valinor - and we know that valar sieged Utumno and that in the war of wrath the host of the valar, apparently lead by the maia Eonwe also sieged Melkor's hq. No such mention of this idea.

And may I say that your very argument that the Valar made a mistake just shows that Gandalf as Olorin (a mere Maia) would not necessarily have been as clever about working things out as you indicate.

I am not arguing he, as a maia, would be the best to handle things, he would just do a _better_ job, wether that concerns organising or fighting itself - for reasong given.

And I don't believe Tolkien ever says exactly what part Gandalf and Saruman played when the White Council drove the Necromancer/Sauron out of the Dol Guldur. For all we know, they may simply have been there advising and encouraging Galadriel and the rest.

The council "put forth its strength" (cf. Council of Elrond) - I doubt that some of them were taking a raincheck on direct action, esspecially when Gandalf discovered - at long last- that it was Sauron who they were dealing with.

The Valar were in no hurry to dispose of Sauron -- for one thing, because everything we know about them indicates that they never were in a hurry period.

You might be reffering to the "delay" of the war of wrath - yet, according to Myths transformed, HoME X, their intervention "may then be viewed as not in fact reluctant or even unduly delayed, but timed with precision" .

But also, it's pretty obvious that Sauron in and of himself did not seem that important to them.

I pretty much doubt that; as Gandalf recounts in The last debate, RotK: "If he regains it, your valour is vain, and his victory will be swift and complete: so complete that none can foresee the end of it while this world lasts." And the domain of the Children of Eru was of prime concern to them, this being the reason why Manwe established his throne on Arda, of all Ea.

What could have been easier at that point than extraditing him to Valinor and casting him into the void along with Melkor?

Well, this idea doens't pretty much take into account the relations existing between Numenor and Valinor - or the fact that the gods couldn't impose their will by force.

Nor could it be completed successfully if the Istari took too active a role.

I disagree; his active role was underlined in Unfinished Tales, where Tolkien does name Gandalf "the chief mover of the resistance to Sauron".

As teachers, advisors, examples, the wizards were there to help men (and other peoples, but particularly men since they were the most vulnerable to him) see through those deceits, abjure those temptations, and resist when resistance seemed most futile.

Hardly an example if 4 out of five fail/fall - and the other one dies; it took Eru to improve the valar plan - which was faulty.

If the Istari wouldn't have limited his powers, the control over Saruman and the fear he holds towards more powerfull beings would have been gone

I doubt your argument strongly; a fully-maia Saruman would never attempt such a folly - he witnessed what happened to Melkor, who was "infinitely" greater than he was.

We cannot say if it was the Palantir that swayed Saruman, though.

I believe we can (Third Age, RotK):

Saruman dares to use the palantír of Orthanc, but becomes ensnared by Sauron, who has the Ithil Stone.

And it was a question of willpower and nature - as Aragorn _does_ resist Sauron.

[Gwydion]

ahem. The powers of the Istari were limited to prevent them from thinking themselves the better of all others and taking over Middle Earth. Also, it forced men to prove their worthiness as new stewards by testing their metal. It also allowed the re-uniting of the half elven line in Aragorn-Arwen.

[Teresa Edgerton]

I know of no proof concerning the fact that maiar (or valar) act more slowly outside Valinor - and we know that valar sieged Utumno and that in the war of wrath the host of the valar, apparently lead by the maia Eonwe also sieged Melkor's hq. No such mention of this idea.

We have no proof that they change their ways outside of Valinor, either. And it doesn't matter why they delay so long, or with what precision they time their interventions, the fact remains that while they delay generations suffer and die. Fixing a problem when it first comes up is not their way. No doubt they have their minds on higher matters, vastly more important in the long run, matters far beyond the understanding of mortals -- but why would this change when they were in Middle Earth, unless they were changed as well?


And the domain of the Children of Eru was of prime concern to them, this being the reason why Manwe established his throne on Arda, of all Ea.

And this would be the reason why they removed Valinor from the Circles of the World?

Well, this idea doens't pretty much take into account the relations existing between Numenor and Valinor - or the fact that the gods couldn't impose their will by force.

If the Valar had asked for custody of Sauron and been refused, then the argument that they don't impose their will by force would have merit. Whatever the relations with Numenor at the time, they could have made a convincing argument that Sauron was their business, as one of their own people -- but they didn't try.


Tolkien does name Gandalf "the chief mover of the resistance to Sauron".

Right -- the mover. Not the chief fighter, or the chief general. The one who moved others to resist. As it says in Of The Rings of Power and the Third Age "to move Elves and Men and all living things of good will to valiant deeds."

[Marky Lazer]

The powers of the Istari were limited to prevent them from thinking themselves the better of all others and taking over Middle Earth.

If that is true, their powers could be limited even more. Saruman already had the power to test it, with a bit more luck, it would have been accomplished. Let me raise some ‘what if’s’
What if Frodo would have claimed the ring for himself and went off with it?
What if Theoden didn’t join the troops of Gondor?
What if the beacons weren’t lit?
Etc.


Also, it forced men to prove their worthiness as new stewards by testing their metal.

This seems hardly an argument. If it was meant that men would be the ruling race in Middle Earth, wouldn’t it make sense to make their powers less limited, instead of limit the powers of the Wizards?


It also allowed the re-uniting of the half elven line in Aragorn-Arwen.

This seems like a very weird argument. You basically say, if Aragron and Arwen wouldn’t have married there would never be a half-elven bloodline? If their love was so strong that Arwen was willing to give up her immortality, then surely other elves are willing to do the same thing in the future (and we already seen it in the history with Beren and Luthien.

[Raynor]

And it doesn't matter why they delay so long, or with what precision they time their interventions, the fact remains that while they delay generations suffer and die.

Yet should the valar have attacked Melkor any sooner, they would have turned Middle-Earth, the most important place in all Ea, into ruin.

No doubt they have their minds on higher matters, vastly more important in the long run, matters far beyond the understanding of mortals

I doubt they have such higher matters - the children of Eru are the culmination of Creation.

And this would be the reason why they removed Valinor from the Circles of the World?

The reason was the understanding that the corruption in Men would drive them to rebel against the gods themselves in order to achieve something Eru prohibited: the lengthening of their lives beyond what is ordained.

Whatever the relations with Numenor at the time, they could have made a convincing argument that Sauron was their business, as one of their own people -- but they didn't try.

I doubt that the valar perceived they could get from the already rebelious numenoreans what was their most important spoil of war ever.

Right -- the mover. Not the chief fighter, or the chief general.

Yet one doesn't exclude the other - and in all cases, he would have acted more succesfully, if he had his previous knowledge and wisdom.

[HieroGlyph]

I do believe I know why Tolkien limited the powers of the Istari.

And answering that here cannot further the debate.

It was a worthy exercise, though, Raynor. A very worthy exercise.

I hereby withdraw from this debate.
I can see where the debate leads, and that is beyond the realms of fantasy...

Thank you,

HG

[Raynor]

Thanks HG, I am glad you apreciated it; we should probably stick to a more popular topic next time, which would draw more participation .

Kelpie, would your team agree that we post the closing statements?