The passing of Arwen

[Raynor]

From the Tale of Aragorn and Arwen:

I say to you, King of the Numenoreans, not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive
...
But Arwen went forth from the House, and the light of her eyes was quenched, and it seemed to her people that she had become cold and grey as nightfall in winter that comes without a star. Then she said farewell to Eldarion, and to her daughters, and to all whom she had loved; and she went out from the city of Minas Tirith and passed away to the land of Lórien, and dwelt there alone under the fading trees until winter came. Galadriel had passed away and Celeborn also was gone, and the land was silent.

There at last when the mallorn-leaves were falling, but spring had not yet come, she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth; and there is her green grave, until the world is changed, and all the days of her life are utterly forgotten by men that come after, and elanor and niphredil bloom no more east of the Sea.

Am I the only one under the impression that she regrets her choice of becoming a mortal?

[HieroGlyph]

I don't imagine she had regret in her heart. She was more than wise enough to realise just what she was doing while falling for Aragorn in earlier days... Besides, not all elves wish to live forever. Some become rather jaded at the thought of a thousand centuries...

[Gwydion]

no. she was fine with it

[orionsixwings]

I think she did. The elves, though magnificent beings all of them, are not incapable of making mistakes that they, in the end, do tend to regret. An Arwen, being mortal, had increased the possibility.

For one thing, when she made that decision, Aragorn was alive -- IN HIS PRIME -- and there was the promise of love and life for a long time since, being Numenorean, he had the gift of long life. Arwen, being an elf most of her life, never really understood death and what it does to those who are left behind. Only when Aragorn died did she understand it, and the misery and grief that it brought, is enough for her to actually regret her choice.

If there was no regret in her, why did she have to leave her children to die alone?

[Treikayan]

Everyone deals with grief in their own way. There is one thing you can't tell to a person (in this case an elf who chose mortality), and that is how to deal with grief. Yes, she did love Aragorn and she was willing to choose a mortal life for her (the sacrafice of love), and Aragorn was the first person very close to her to undergo death, but I think the grief was to much for her to bear. Most of her kin had already departed, and she was living in a world of man now. Where else could she turn to? Who would understand her grief? I believe that is why she chose to die alone. I don't think it was an impression that she regretted her choice. I think it was how she dealt with the grief. It affected her beyond measure. When you experience a death in the family or a close friend for the first time, who would you turn to? Most would immediately turn to a close friend or a family member to "share" the grief. I don't think Arwen had that advantage with her kin not there. Note in the text, "Galadriel had passed away and Celeborn also was gone, and the land was silent." That was as close as she could get to being with her family.

[orionsixwings]

not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive

This alone proves that she had regretted her choice. She never understood what it was like to lose someone in death, she scorned them while they grieved, only with Aragorn's passing did she fully understand what it was really like, and I think she regrets --- maybe not entirely, and not for a long time --- but she regretted choosing mortality.

[HieroGlyph]

Originally Posted by orionsixwings

This alone proves that she had regretted her choice...

Proves!?!

It proves nothing. The only proof there can be is that a few words do not explain anything...

Explore what 'grief' really means. Then debate what 'really' means. Debate is endless... Do not be so certain of your proofs, please.

As humans in this real world we have an idea of what grief means. There is pain at the death of a loved one... Arwen had been around for far longer than any human. She had a better 'chance', over time, of seeing what mortality meant. And she chose it to be with Aragorn.

Eru granted mortality to Man as a Gift. Freedom from the ties of Arda. Arwen knew what she was 'getting into'. She chose the mystery of a mortal death over that of The Halls Of Mandos.

This is what Tolkien tried to get across in his analogy between this fantasy creation (his 'works') and his own Catholic/Christian belief. He believed humans have a 'spirit' that does not wither. And he did not know where it went, for certain, but he beleived in it nontheless and this was the Gift he perceived in his stories...

Why grieve and live when you can join your man beyond wherever Eru led the souls of the Edain?

+ Doubt is the bitterness. And to leave behind what you love upon Arda is the bitterness. Separation is regret. Separation is the grief...

[Treikayan]

Originally Posted by Appendix A of Return of the King by J.R.R. Tolkien

'"I speak no comfort to you, for there is no comfort for such pain within the circles of the world. The uttermost choice is before you: to repent and go to the Havens and bear away into the West the memory of our days together that shall there be evergreen but never more than memory; or else to abide the Doom of Men."

'"Nay, dear lord," she said, "that choice is long over. There is now no ship that would bear me hence, and I must indeed abide the Doom of Men, whether I will or I nill: the loss and silence. But I say to you, King of the Numenoreans, not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive."

'"So it seems," he said. "But let us not be overthrown at the final test, who of old renounced the Shadow and the Ring. In sorrow we must tog, but not in despair. Behold! we are not bound for ever to the circles of the world, and beyond them is more than memory, Farewell!"

'"Estel, Estel!" she cried, and with that even as he took her hand and kissed it, he fell into sleep. Then a great beauty was revealed in him, so that all who after came there looked on him in wonder; for they saw that the grace of his youth, and the valour of his manhood, and the wisdom and majesty of his age were blended together. And long there he lay, an image of the splendour of Kings of Men in glory undimmed before the breaking of the world.

I went back to Appendix A to get the gaps. Arwen was now facing for the first time the bitterness of her decision. This does not mean regret, however, Aragorn reassures her that the both of them are not bound to the circles of the world (the fantasy boundaries of Arda). Even at his bidding, Aragorn once again give the choice to Arwen to "repent" and go into the west, or accept the Gift of Men.

The choice was long gone, but Arwen was still willing to accept the bitterness of death. It is interesting to note but Arwen returns to the same spot she "engaged" with Estel (Aragorn). She was not regretting her decision of mortality, I believe.

'There at last when the mallorn-leaves were falling, but spring had not yet come, she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth; and there is her green grave, until the world is changed, and all the days of her life are utterly forgotten by men that come after, and elanor and niphredil bloom no more east of the Sea.'

[orionsixwings]

Originally Posted by HieroGlyph

Proves!?!

It proves nothing. The only proof there can be is that a few words do not explain anything...

Explore what 'grief' really means. Then debate what 'really' means. Debate is endless... Do not be so certain of your proofs, please.

Debate is endless only if one decides not to accept the obvious. But this is good, keeps me interested.

As humans in this real world we have an idea of what grief means. There is pain at the death of a loved one... Arwen had been around for far longer than any human. She had a better 'chance', over time, of seeing what mortality meant. And she chose it to be with Aragorn.

If she really did have a better understanding of what it all meant, why then say, "not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last" That, unless you have a different english, only means one thing --- knowledge is different from understanding. Understanding leads to discernment. Knowing that something exists is different from actually understanding it. One can know that rape and murder exists, or that cancer is a real illness, but until you actually go through that experience you will never have understanding.

Arwen may have been blessed with long life, but none of her household has every experienced the pain of death, thus she has no understanding till Aragorn died.

Eru granted mortality to Man as a Gift.

Something I question strenuously even with the Catholic church. If death was meant to be gift, why weep for the dead? Why go on living at all? Why do we despise those who take lives? Death is an enemy, not a friend, and although I respect and still love Tolkien as a genius, he is tainted by the great lies of the Roman Catholic Church, and I do not begrudge him this, for there are too many who have been victimized by the church.

Freedom from the ties of Arda. Arwen knew what she was 'getting into'. She chose the mystery of a mortal death over that of The Halls Of Mandos.

Knowing does not actually prepare you for the inevitable. You can know you will die today, but when you actually face death, will you not try to escape? Arwen knew of the death, but did not understand until she was faced with it.

This is what Tolkien tried to get across in his analogy between this fantasy creation (his 'works') and his own Catholic/Christian belief. He believed humans have a 'spirit' that does not wither. And he did not know where it went, for certain, but he beleived in it nontheless and this was the Gift he perceived in his stories...

Why grieve and live when you can join your man beyond wherever Eru led the souls of the Edain?

+ Doubt is the bitterness. And to leave behind what you love upon Arda is the bitterness. Separation is regret. Separation is the grief...

Again, I do not blame him for his influences. But you have already given my strongest point: WHY GRIEVE? True that separation brings grief, but I believe the bigger part of it is the uncertainty of whether or not you will meet again. Was Arwen not certain? Perhaps there was no afterlife after all.

Imagine to be lost forever. That is worth grieving.

[HieroGlyph]

Yes, knowledge and understanding can be quite different.

We need to remember that Raynor's original question was 'did she regret it?'

Regret does not exclude grief, but grief does not have to contain regret. So we are not saying she could not grieve. Why grieve is something for philosophy, something separate from emotion of which we still cannot disconnect ourselves, no matter how intellectual you try to make it...

[orionsixwings]

Originally Posted by HieroGlyph

Yes, knowledge and understanding can be quite different.

We need to remember that Raynor's original question was 'did she regret it?'

Regret does not exclude grief, but grief does not have to contain regret. So we are not saying she could not grieve. Why grieve is something for philosophy, something separate from emotion of which we still cannot disconnect ourselves, no matter how intellectual you try to make it...

I agree that grief cannot be explained nor should it be. it is almost a sacred thing. I have lost someone I dearly love, and I know what it is like to grieve.

I still believe she regretted her choice, however, a woman (human anyway) may regret loving a man but in the next minute would take that back. Love is stronger than regret, and though Arwen regretted her choice, I think, because of her love for Aragorn, in the end she accepted her fate. That is why she went back to where they were bethrotted, and decided to fade there --- To remind herself why she made the choice.

[Treikayan]

Noun
1.
regret - sadness associated with some wrong done or some disappointment; "he drank to drown his sorrows"; "he wrote a note expressing his regret"; "to his rue, the error cost him the game" ruefulness, sorrow, rue
sadness, unhappiness - emotions experienced when not in a state of well-being

contriteness, contrition, attrition - sorrow for sin arising from fear of damnation

compunction, remorse, self-reproach - a feeling of deep regret (usually for some misdeed)
Verb1.regret - feel remorse for; feel sorry for; be contrite about rue, repent
feel, experience - undergo an emotional sensation; "She felt resentful"; "He felt regret"
2.regret - feel sad about the loss or absence of miss - feel or suffer from the lack of; "He misses his mother"
3.regret - decline formally or politely; "I regret I can't come to the party" refuse, decline - show unwillingness towards; "he declined to join the group on a hike"

regret - be sorry; "I regret to say that you did not gain admission to Harvard"
4.regret - be sorry; "I regret to say that you did not gain admission to Harvard" inform - impart knowledge of some fact, state or affairs, or event to; "I informed him of his rights"

regret - decline formally or politely; "I regret I can't come to the party"

fear - be sorry; used to introduce an unpleasant statement; "I fear I won't make it to your wedding party"
[Middle English regretten, to lament, from Old French regreter : re-, re- + -greter, to weep (perhaps of Germanic origin).]
re·gretter n.
Synonyms: regret, sorrow, grief, anguish, woe, heartache, heartbreak
These nouns denote mental distress. Regret has the broadest range, from mere disappointment to a painful sense of dissatisfaction or self-reproach, as over something lost or done: She looked back with regret on the pain she had caused her family.
Sorrow connotes sadness caused by misfortune, affliction, or loss; it can also imply contrition: "sorrow for his ... children, who needed his protection, and whom he could not protect" James Baldwin.
Grief is deep, acute personal sorrow, as that arising from irreplaceable loss: "Grief fills the room up of my absent child,/Lies in his bed, walks up and down with me" Shakespeare.
Anguish implies agonizing, excruciating mental pain: "I pray that our heavenly Father may assuage the anguish of your bereavement" Abraham Lincoln.
Woe is intense, often prolonged wretchedness or misery: "the deep, unutterable woe/Which none save exiles feel" W.E. Aytoun.
Heartache most often applies to sustained private sorrow: The child's difficulties are a source of heartache to the parents.
Heartbreak is overwhelming grief: "Better a little chiding than a great deal of heartbreak" Shakespeare.

Apparently the definition would apply, but I always think of regret with definition number "3," declining and unwillingness, more of the action regard than the "sorrow" regard.

[HieroGlyph]

I guess Raynor needs to step in and explain just how Arwen might have regretted her choice.

My own interpretation would be to imagine sending her back in time and asking her if she would do it all over again: if she regretted her choice she would decline; if she would actually do it all over again, then she does not regret. So which def. is that? 3 as again? Or a combination of 1 + 3?

I really dont know. Maybe Tolkien expressly states if it was this kind of regret?

In my heart I would hope that she would make the same choice.
...For reasons of that Gift to Man. The one counterpoint to the Spirit of an Elf. Whereas an Elf is bound to Arda, but Man's spirit is not. (...In this fantasy realm...)

[HieroGlyph]

"...and I must indeed abide the Doom of Men... But I say to you, King of the Numenoreans, not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive."

Arwen speaks of Numenoreans here. And the story goes that they 'clung to life'... They feared let go of their lives. And saught ways to prolong it and deny it. I think Arwen is alluding to how foolish that was... Death comes to all Men. Do not live in fear of it. Deny it while you can, but do not let it twist your life with fear and dread.

Maybe this was her meaning?

[Raynor]

My own interpretation would be to imagine sending her back in time and asking her if she would do it all over again: if she regretted her choice she would decline; if she would actually do it all over again, then she does not regret.

That was my meaning . I still believe she lived to regret it, given that she lost all that caused her to make her choice (just as Elrond foretold, cf The third age, HoME XII).