The passing of Arwen

[orionsixwings]

Originally Posted by Raynor

That was my meaning . I still believe she lived to regret it, given that she lost all that caused her to make her choice (just as Elrond foretold, cf The third age, HoME XII).

Then we have the same interpretation.

[Boaz]

Regret that she would not see her kin in the Undying Lands? Perhaps, presumably her brothers were still living somewhere in the north with her grandfather... yet she did not seek them out when Elessar passed.

Regret that she had not understood what humanity was about? Yes. She was their Queen of beauty and grace, yet she had not comprehended their pain in life and their trust in the afterlife.

Regret that she could not stay longer with Elessar? Yes, she saw her parents marriage last a thousand years or more and she saw her grandparents marrriage over the course of two thousand years or so.

Regretful enough to have chosen differently? I highly doubt it. Arwen was not fainthearted.

[hypocriticHarkonnen]

i think she has a suitable inkling that when it comes to life-changing decisions, there is no turning back. The very reason she has chosen life among mortals, Elessar, is no more. Though it might be a tad selfish to think of it that way, when her love and her reason for being has passed away, she can do nothing else but linger in the shadows of the past. But as for regret, I don't think if she was given another chance she would exchange her life with Aragorn for eternity in the Undying lands. It may fill her with longing and sadness, but for her life would've been empty anyway if she didn't stay with Aragorn. Just my opinion.

[HieroGlyph]

Refering to this letter J R R Tolkien wrote in 1953 to Father Robert Murray, a Jesuit priest:

" 'The Lord of the Rings' is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like 'religion,' to cults or practices, in the imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism."

Even from a young age and not knowing why, I appreciated the fact that Middle-Earth did not have its peoples practicing 'religions'. How their world came about is a given. No debate. No opposable beliefs... Sauron had his lies among Men, but the reader knew them for what they were.

Then there is the Gift of the One to Men. Counterpoint to the immortality of the Elves. Edain and Eldar are very much alike, and the Edain more elven-like in their youth. Which of us humans would ever turn down the chance to stop time for their own body as a youth?

But we humans are precisely like these Edain, and all our human emotions roil and confound us at the thought of death. I think most Edain if not all of the right minded, would not or should not fear death. They have a form of faith: Eru gave them the Gift.

Arwen Once-Elf, Queen Amongst Men may have remorse and regret at the ending of life for her loved one and her own mortal tie to his flesh, but she would not change the past. Her regret could not have meant that. True understanding for her came from becoming mortal. Without it she could not be forced to face the same questions.

(Its a mortal day for me. Sorry I cant be light of heart...)

Besides, Raynor, I am still not sure which option you chose to take: regret her choice enough to wish she'd have chosen differently? Or regret everything up to the point of not quite chosing differently? Or a lesser regret?

All I could say is: if I met an elf, I'd rather chase faeries than woo or allow her to fall for this mortal soul! "Avaunt, wise lass, and remain hidden till we've ceased to be!"...

[Raynor]

regret her choice enough to wish she'd have chosen differently? Or regret everything up to the point of not quite chosing differently?

Well, the second regret is the cause of the first one - if that helps

[Teresa Edgerton]

I don't know, speaking as a female, there's nothing a woman likes more when she's given up her immortality in order to spend a mortal span with the man she loves than to find out he holds the sacrifice so lightly that he chooses to shorten their time together.

Whenever I read that part of their story, I have to wonder -- not if she had regrets about choosing to be human (Elros had done so before her, and it looks like her brothers made the same choice), but if she had a few qualms about choosing Aragorn.

Since the story takes place in pre-Biblical times and there were apparently no religious teachings promising an afterlife, I've always felt that his last words to Arwen came across as smug and insufferable. All very well for Tolkien who had been reciting the Catholic Catechism since he was a little boy to feel certain "we are not bound for ever to the circles of the world, and beyond them is more than memory," but in Aragorn it seems unwarranted.

[Raynor]

I don't know, speaking as a female, there's nothing a woman likes more when she's given up her immortality in order to spend a mortal span with the man she loves than to find out he holds the sacrifice so lightly that he chooses to shorten their time together.

Yet part of the magnificence of the high kings that he restored was also their proper view on life - i.e. that they should not cling to it, but depart when the time has come (as Tolkien notes in letter #325, Frodo and the other mortals also departed from life in Aman when they deemed it was right).

The opposite of Aragorn's example was that of the later Numenor kings - who clang to life, forbiding their heirs their throne; a clinging which led to the second Fall of Men - all the more reason for Aragorn to avoid such an example, and to depart as nobly as Beor.

[Teresa Edgerton]

But I can't help thinking, even though he's been given the option, it seems a bit like cheating. Part of the "gift" of mortality is the slow decline, the physical and mental decay. By skipping that stage, Aragorn avoids much of the bitterness -- meanwhile leaving Arwen to wither on her own.

[Raynor]

Well, just as was his 'doom' to depart like the Men of old, so was her doom (as refferenced previously) to depart only after she lost all that motivated her choice.

[HieroGlyph]

Originally Posted by Kelpie

...to find out he [Aragorn] holds the sacrifice so lightly that he chooses to shorten their time together.

... if she had a few qualms about choosing Aragorn.

... pre-Biblical times and there were apparently no religious teachings promising an afterlife...

Speaking as a non-woman, I dont think there is disregard on Aragorns part over Arwens 'sacrifice'. She chose willingly, as far as I can ever recall, and I do not believe Aragorn (from what Tolkien tried to 'get across') viewed his own mortality, or the time of ending it, as any form of hurt towards Arwen. He accepted it. Its not a matter of intent or otherwise.

As to the idea of any after-life, this was something that Tolkien avoided, on purpose. It is the 'mystery' behind that Gift. (Neither is it a pre-biblical allusion...)

[Michael Martinez]

I think Tolkien used regret as a key motivation for the Elvish psyche, but Arwen was too young to fully appreciate the regret her people had burdened themselves with. They had made some revocable choices in the past, and some irrevocable choices. But they were the not people to live with the consequences of those choices.

Where Arwen differs from her Elvish peers is that she and she alone had to confront the consquences of her choice. If she had stayed of Elven-kind and married an Eldarin lord, they might look forward to some periods of long separation but they would eventually have hope of being reunited, even if one died and the other had to sail over Sea to Aman.

But in choosing to be Mortal, Arwen took on the uncertainty of not having any real vision of being together with Aragorn or anyone else she loved ever again. In her worst fear, she would be terribly and utterly alone. I think she needed time to confront that fear and overcome it, so that at the end she was able to give up her life as Aragorn had done. They passed away freely and by choice, eager to embrace the fate which awaited them.

In "Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth", Finrod Felagund debated with the Mortal Wise-woman Andreth over the ultimate fates of Men and Elves. Men feared death because they didn't know what lay beyond. They envied the Elves, who had hope of being resurrected in Valinor. But Elves envied Men because they knew Men's spirits would exist beyond the life of the world, but the Elves had no promise of continued existence after the world ended. To them, their existence was finite while Men were promised an infinite longevity, whereas to Men the breath of life was brief but Elves could expect to breather long and again if they died.

One might say that Men had too little time to build up regret, but Arwen, who had lived for 3,000 years, only knew regret at the very end of her life because she had had time to acquire the capacity for Elvish regret. And she fulfilled that capacity through her own personal choice.

[Raynor]

Where Arwen differs from her Elvish peers is that she and she alone had to confront the consquences of her choice.

What about these few examples:
- Luthien following Beren;
- Thingol requesting a Silmaril;
- Feanor pointing a sword at his brother;
- Feanor's sons taking the oath;
- the noldor returning to ME against the curse of Mandos

Didn't all they suffer the bitter consequences of their choices?

[Treikayan]

Mike, you have some good points and I like your post, but I have to agree with Raynor. As I read the Silmarillion, I can't help to remember the consequences many elves paid for with their choices. The best thing that stands out in the Silmarillion is the "Noldor Tragedy." Raynor mentioned Fëanor, one of my favorite elfin characters, but I can add Finrod to the list, my other favorite elfin character. Finrod was slain in the dungeons of Sauron, battling the werewolf and protecting Beren. It was his oath to Barahir that drove him to go on the quest with Beren.

[Michael Martinez]

The Elves of the First Age were a different generation (or set of generations) from Arwen's "Elvish peers". They didn't have the baggage of choices behind them that the Third Age Elves carried. Luthien might have needed to confront her mortality, but she had already died and been restored to life. And Tolkien (or maybe Christopher) just sort of glossed over how she and Beren died. He wrote about the poignancy of Arwen's final moments with Aragorn. And she had to live on without him.

I look at Arwen as a Third Age Elf-woman, who would be culturally different from a First Age Elf.

I base much of that perspective on Gildor Inglorion's cryptic comments.

[Raynor]

They didn't have the baggage of choices behind them that the Third Age Elves carried.

What baggage of choices are you reffering to? Any pre-Third Age elf, still lingering in Middle-Earth, would have more and heavier memories to ponder on that Arwen did (esspecially if we are talking about an exiled elf). And I thought you were reffering to _her_ choice.