For the Ladies (Of ASoIaf, not this forum!)

[AryaUnderfoot]

Originally Posted by the_faery_queen

and cersi broke free of the medieval/patriarchal mould. the, you must marry and have kids and that's all your for, thing. cos tho she did marry AND have kids, they weren't her husbands kids. she also got rid of him.

Cersei is still quite the prisoner of the medeival/patriarchal mould. After all, yes, she did bear another man's children, and yes, she did have her husband killed. But she's still acting the part, and pretending to be the ideal woman. If she was a mould-breaker, she wouldn't have to hide what she is.

I don't pity her regarding Robert's infidelity. She's no better. And at least he didn't cheat with a family member! Robert just believed in a Rabelaisian lifestyle. I don't second his preferences, but at least he managed to find some joy in a life he despised.

Brienne, Asha, Arya, Daenerys, Maege Mormont, even the Queen of Thorns- those are women who have broken the mould. They're real players in the game.

[hedgeknight]

Originally Posted by the_faery_queen

and on top of that she had to watch her twin, part of her self, being treated completely differently, simply for being male. and i can totally sympathise with how crap that must have made her feel. how worthless. and totally understand why she was desperate to have power and some control over her onw life.

Well, this comment might open a can of worms, but to ME it's pretty obvious that Cersei and Jaime ARE completely different - one's a woman, the other a man. It is little wonder that they are treated differently. If Cersei wants to be treated with respect, let her pick up a sword and don armor and ride into battle.
-g-

[JohnSnow]

Originally Posted by hedgeknight

Well, this comment might open a can of worms, but to ME it's pretty obvious that Cersei and Jaime ARE completely different - one's a woman, the other a man. It is little wonder that they are treated differently. If Cersei wants to be treated with respect, let her pick up a sword and don armor and ride into battle.

How dare you point out the obvious. I am not a twin but I have a sister and I am going to call her and berate her for getting more attention as a girl. D@mn I never saw it before, that is why all of those women go into a seperate bathroom, they are women not men. Sheesh! I am so obtuse...

How much more of this do we have to endure. We have it. Faeiry queen likes cersei, she likes twins, she thinks cersei was screwed over, cersei is not at fault, please accept her, blah blah blah...z..z.z.z..z.z.zz.z.z.zzzz

this is almost as bad as my posts against Cat

snow

[the_faery_queen]

oy! :P

Anyway, I dont' think cersi is conforming to the mould. She had another man's kids and murdered her husband. That's nto really the dutiful wife thing is it! But i do agree, she's not a major player. And yes, she and Jamie are different, but that doesn't mean that jamie is neccessarily better than she is, but that seemed to be the way that he was treated. And look at Ayra, she didnt' like being treated like a girl either, she wanted a boy's life. She was just lucky enough to be in a position to get it. And i think that's an interesting contrast really. cersi seemed to hate the way her brother was treated better, she resented the male dominance, which is partlty why i think she is so sexual. Its her way of controlling that dominance. Ayra wanted to have a life like her brothers, so i guess she could also be said to have resented that dominance, but she went the other way, and acted more male like. And both used their brothers. ayra, through jon's help (he taught her sword stuff, right?) and Cersi instead just slept with hers!

very different, though they are similiar in some ways. And that's interesting as a contrast. at least, i think so

[Tyranus]

I could have sworn that I read somewhere in AGoT that Cersei was only bedded by Robert once, and alcohol had tricked him the other times into thinking he had actually slept with her (it was something to this affect, it could have been more than once, but I am almost sure she said something about him only bedding her once, it has been a while, I am sure that someone will come to my aid and prove me right or correct me). You keep saying that Robert cheated on her, though in fact she never wanted to sleep with him anyway, so that means exactly nothing, she did not suffer for it she was grateful.

[JohnSnow]

Although it pains me to do this, I believe that Cersei was actually attracted to Robrt at first but his love for Lyanna soured that quickly, along with his whoring around.

But in agreement with you Tyranus, it ended up that Cersei could have cared less because she had Jamie.

Only Martin knows what would have happened had Robert fallen for Cersei and abandoned his lost love of Lyanna.

Now back to hating Cersei...

[rudycrab]

My problem with Cersei isnt' that she is hateful, full of herself, or sleeping with her brother. I think these are admirable characteristics in an evil queen type. The problem is that she is stupid. I mean I understand that she is a product of her environment and that her father was a jerk abd that expalins her vileness but that doesn't excuse all her mistakes. Her lot in life made it so sex is her main weapon, thats fine, but why does she have to use it on everyone without thought. You would think she might realize that sleeping with a man does not make him your slave but nope she just goes right on. She even tries to seduce Ned. Like that would ever work. Every person in the book can outsmart her, except for Robert cause he is too drunk and Ned becuase he is too nice, all you have to do is find out who she is sleeping with and bribe him.

[Culhwch]

Originally Posted by AryaUnderfoot

Shae, Ygritte, and Lysa Arryn- I heard the song of angels when they died. No kidding. Total cause for celebration.

Absolutely. Preaching to the choir over here, AU. I'm leaning that way with Asha, too.

Originally Posted by the_faery-queen

go brianna underrated character she is. at least so far.

Not to nitpick or anything. You did read the same book as me, right? Never once came across this mysterious 'Brianna'. But then, I am still searching the pages for the elusive 'Jamie'....

Female characters... Dany bores me to tears. I like the Stark girls in fits, but I think Meera is one of the more interesting female characters of the novels. And I've always had a soft spot for Dacey Mormont.

[Adasunshine]

Seriously? Cersei? I'm sorry TFQ, I just don't get it, my feelings about her are pretty much summed up on page 2 of this thread.

I am however, right with rudycrab on the stupid thing. Cersei thinks she's clever - oh how she thinks she's clever - but in truth isn't, truly truly isn't clever in the slightest.

The fact of the matter is that she is a lady in what is very much a man's world. If she wants to form a little niche for herself in this society then she needs to use her brains not her *ahem* womanly assets which she seems to feel is the best way to get anyone, male or female because she's obviously so irresistible to everyone. She also needs to stop wanting to be her father, afterall, he didn't prove to be so bloody clever in the end did he? (GO TYRION)

As for her father treating her differently to Jaime making her the way she is - absolute poppycock (???? have never used that word before) as far as I'm concerned. Most women in families as powerful as the Lannisters and some less powerful were brought up in the exact same fashion and they seemed to turn out ok, for instance Margaery Tyrell, although you could argue she had the Queen of Thorns, you could also argue that Cersei never made use of her aunt who is obviously more than she appears to be. Also, no-one in that famliy was treated worse than Tyrion and apart from him doing a little Patricide, he turned out ok, if a little cleverer, twisted and just a wee bit bitter than most people!

You see, Tyrion made the most of what was around him and took advantage of what he could, Cersei on the other hand was quite happy with her lot when she thought she'd be marrying the future King Targaryen and bearing his children but when that all changed and was taken away from her, her spoiled brat nature kicked in and just look where she is now!

Also, the little thing about Arya being more fortunate as she was allowed to act like a boy. Uh-uh, no way. Catelyn & Sansa (Grrr) and that Septa woman were constantly complaining about Arya's choices in life and trying to make her 'a lady' but Arya is just too headstrong, willful and has a wily little brain so doesn't conform. Cersei is none of these things, no matter how hard she tries. Even Ned - albeit to appease Catelyn - tried to make Arya 'see sense'. It wasn't until he actually sat down with her to discuss Needle that he saw that this is what she wanted and was also probably reminded a little of Lyanna that he relented and arranged for tuition with Syrio.

I could go on but it'd just get even more boring than it is already.

Quote from Arya Underfoot

Brienne, Asha, Arya, Daenerys, Maege Mormont, even the Queen of Thorns- those are women who have broken the mould. They're real players in the game.

Amen to that and sorry for the ramble everyone!

xx

[the_faery_queen]

well i disagree that's all. i don't think cersi is doing what society wants her to. i don't think their society wants women to be sexual. true patriarchal societies don't. look at the way our society still reacts to women having sex. we still have them called names and so on. and i think that having a TWIN treated differently to you, is far different that a mere sibbling. a twin is aprt of yourself, it drives home the whole situation of how unlucky she was to be born female, in that world. everything went to the other part of her, the male twin, while she, the female part of the same thing was ignored. and tyrion, well, people handle stuff differently. just because he came out the way he did, doesn't mean that cersi would. and yeah, i think she would have been ok with robert if he hadn't called her another woman's name, but she's petty, and he did, and that's his tough really! he should have been more careful and considerate of her. he didn't want her, anymore than she particularly wanted him, but he could have tried to make better of the situation.

that's what i say about cat as well. just cos some people get over their partners cheating, doesn't mean they all do!

anyhoo, kinda bored of this now! sorry! just feel liek i am saying the same old stuff.

[hedgeknight]

Originally Posted by the_faery_queen

anyhoo, kinda bored of this now! sorry! just feel liek i am saying the same old stuff.

You know, I think you're right on this - we've talked Cersei to death. But, I will say this, Cersei MAY have been better woman had she a husband who loved her and was faithful. I stress MAY have been because she is a Lannister and with that comes a certain degree of lofty superiority (as does with most royalty).
-g-

[JohnSnow]

Originally Posted by the_faery_queen

i don't think their society wants women to be sexual.

Just checking. We are talking about George R.R. Martin and his series A Song of Ice and Fire.

Just checking, carry on...

snow

[AryaUnderfoot]

In response to an earlier post about Cersei ever sleeping with Robert- she did on their wedding night. He called her "Lyanna" during the act, and I believe that is what really got her goat. He was the second man who chose Lyanna over her, even after Lyanna was dead. This could have been the start of her apparent need to seduce everyone around her in exchange for a little reassurance. I suppose she took the Lannister sayings about paying debts (hee hee) and never forgetting a little too far.

Damn Lannisters- I thought they were lions, not elephants.

[JohnSnow]

Originally Posted by AryaUnderfoot

In response to an earlier post about Cersei ever sleeping with Robert- she did on their wedding night. He called her "Lyanna" during the act, and I believe that is what really got her goat. He was the second man who chose Lyanna over her, even after Lyanna was dead. This could have been the start of her apparent need to seduce everyone around her in exchange for a little reassurance. I suppose she took the Lannister sayings about paying debts (hee hee) and never forgetting a little too far.

Damn Lannisters- I thought they were lions, not elephants.

You are correct m'am. Do not allow my displeasure with Cersei and Cat to fool you into thinking that I like Robert at all. He is as much at fault for what goes on, if not entirely at fault. He killed Rheagar out of anger, Rheagar may have made a great king, and with Lyanna at his side for a queen.... He is the one who ostricized Cersei into a frigid uh..well... you know. And he is the gutless wonder who would not stand up to one of a hundred things during his reaign.

He is damn lucky she didn't kill him after he screamed her name and fell asleep. But you are right Arya, the Lannisters always pay their debts!

[Adasunshine]

Aaah, but without Robert and his shenanigans, we wouldn't have ASOIAF!

You gotta love him for that alone!

xx