Foreshadowing in ASOIAF

[foxtrot023]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

The first chapter, when they find the Direwolf pups, was certainly rich in symbolism and offered us a foreshadowing of the death of Ned and Robert.

For the later connections between the children and direwolves, though - I would personally see it less as an issue of foreshadowing, as much as that the direwolves themselves and the children are inextricably linked - they are effectively a shared conscious experience, so it's inevitable that the direwolves will very much reflect the children's own personalities.

2c.

True, and they also seem to share their fate i.e. Nymeria- Arya, both gone wild, Snow and Ghost, both the outcasts, Robb and Grey Wind, both dead-

[Tyranus]

Well dead is a generalization, to be specific they were both beheaded.

[Boaz]

In Tyrion's first POV in AGOT, page 91 of my paperback, the following exchange takes place between Tyrion and Jaime as they discuss Bran and his recent accident.

"He could end his torment," Jaime said. "I would, if it were my son. It would be a mercy."
"I advise against putting that suggestion to Lord Eddard, sweet brother," Tyrion said. "He should not take it kindly."
"Even if the boy does live, he will be a cripple. Worse than a cripple. A grotesque. Give me a good clean death."
Tyrion replied with a shrug that accentuated the twist of his shoulders. "Speaking for the grotesques," he said, "I beg to differ. Death is so terribly final, while life is full of possibilities."
Jaime smiled. "You are a perverse little imp, aren't you?"
"Oh, yes," Tyrion admitted. "I hope the boy does wake, I would be most interested to hear what he might have to say."
His brother's smile curdled like sour milk. "Tyrion, my sweet brother, he said darkly, "there are times when you give me cause to wonder whose side you are on."

Four things struck me from this exchange.

First, I should have seen that Jaime was implying that he had a son.

Second, Tyrion knew about Jaime's sons and so was not fazed by the comment.

Third, Jaime never wants to be crippled. He abhors the thought of being crippled. Martin set Jaime up to be introduced to Vargo Hoat.

Fourth, even Jaime doubts Tyion's loyalties before the fighting even begins. Who will Tyrion ultimately side with?

[shugahsveet]

Oh, those direwolves. They have the natures of their masters and mistresses. They were sent to the Starks by the gods of the north. And if that is true, Ned thinks, then what had he done by killing Lady. So he dies horribly and his family scatters. I just get this weird feeling that if you kill one of them you're in big trouble. I want to see how the Freys turn out because I don't think it was too smart to butcher Grey Wind like that. I have a feeling they're going to feel the wrath of the gods, too.

[red_temple]

Originally Posted by shugahsveet

I want to see how the Freys turn out because I don't think it was too smart to butcher Grey Wind like that. I have a feeling they're going to feel the wrath of the gods, too.

I think they may already be feeling some wrath with Lady Stoneheart running around and stringing up anything that even smells like a Frey.

[Boaz]

I was thinking today that the primary religion of The Seven Kingdoms is the worship of The Seven... the Father, the Mother, the Maid, the Warrior, the Crone, the Smith, and the Stranger. Do these aspects of the god of the Faith mirror the aspects of the seven kingdoms that comprise a unified Westeros?

IIRC, the kingdoms are Dorne, The Reach (the rich fertile lands south of God's Eye and north of Dorne), the Westerlands, the Riverlands (it seems to me that the Iron Islands were traditionally tied to the Riverlands), The Vale, the Coastlands (the Storm Coast and east coast of Westeros), and the North.

Even though Ned held to the old gods, he and his companions were seven in number when they went to the Tower of Joy.

I don't know exactly what I'm saying here, but perhaps a fellowship of seven will also undertake a quest to save a lady. Dany? Sansa? Margaery? And will those seven represent each of the kingdoms and each of the aspects of the Faith?

[AryaUnderfoot]

Originally Posted by red_temple

I think they may already be feeling some wrath with Lady Stoneheart running around and stringing up anything that even smells like a Frey.

Ew, what does a Frey smell like?


Dirty old man...?

[Boaz]

Don't tell me you actually know?!?!

[Boaz]

The question of Jon's father, forshadowing, and sons continuing in the sins/actions/alliances of ther fathers popped into my head today.

Eddard raised his banner in rebellion and marched south. He lost his honor by fathering a bastard while on campaign.

Robb raised his banner in rebellion and marched south. He lost his honor by sleeping with a virgin while on campaign. So as not to commit the sin of his father, Robb married the girl.

Rhaegar read something in a book that changed his life. Aemon was familiar with the same material. Rhaegar became even more serious. He secretly took a Stark girl to his bed.

Jon has been given certain books by Aemon. Jon will soon understand these passages. Jon is already serious. When Jon thinks of Ygritte, he often compares her to Arya.

[MrWright]

If Rhaegar had indeed bedded Lyanna, then Jon would be his.....and Eddard wouldn't have fathered a bastard. Only a lie to keep Jon safe.

Which in turn got Robb killed.

Sins of the father indeed...

[the smiling weirwood]

I think the best instance of foreshadowing is Dany's vision in the House of the Undying of Qarth. She sees Sansa in the Eyrie, Jon on the Wall, and the War of the Five Kings, though she doesn't recognize any of it.

[YOSSARIAN]

15 days short of 2 years. Nice thread resurrection.

Arya's realtionship to her wolf is very interesting. She has to force her wolf away, just as she has to force her identity away if she wishes to become a Faceless Person (yeah I changed the pronoun there, but she's not a Man y'know.) Driving away her identity has proven just as difficult as driving away Nymeria. Does Arya's inability to completely sever herself from her history actually benefit the agenda of the Faceless Men (thereby explaning the old man's willingness to keep her on despite her shortcomings?) What to make of the fact that her wolf is apparently the she-devil leading the pack of wolves terrorizing the Riverlands? An assassin is supposed to be a lone wolf, not a leader of a pack. In the course of her career as a Faceless Person does Arya unwittingly gain a following of supporters? What to make of the dream she has the night she goes blind? Is there a reason why this post is mostly questions? (Answer-Yes, because I don't yet see any of the answers.)

[TK-421]

Let's resurrect the thread again.

I was just rereading AGOT and Jon's first chapter. There is a significant amount of foreshadowing in this chapter. I wish to refer to two exchanges:

1) Jon and Benjen:
Uncle Benjen studied his face carefully. "The Wall is a hard place for a boy, Jon."
"I am almost a man grown," Jon protested. "I will turn fifteen on my next name day, and Maester Luwin says bastards grow up faster than other children."
"That's true enough," Benjen said with a downward twist of his mouth. He took Jon's cup from the table, filled it fresh from a nearby pitcher, and drank down a long swallow.
"Daeren Targaryen was only fourteen when he conquered Dorne," Jon said. The Young Dragon was one of his heroes.
"A conquest that lasted a summer," his uncle pointed out. "Your Boy King lost ten thousand men taking the place, and another fifty trying to hold it. Someone should have told him that war isn't a game." He took another sip of wine. "Alsom" he said, wiping his mouth, "Daeren Targaryen was only eighteen when he died. Or have you forgotten that part?"
"I forget nothing," Jon boasted. The wine was making him bold. He tried to sit very straight, to make himself seem taller. "I want to serve in the Night's Watch, Uncle."

Could Jon's life emulate that of his hero?

2) Jon and Tyrion:
"Let me give you some counsel, bastard," Lannister said. "Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armor yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you."
Jon was in no mood for anyone's counsel. "What do you know about being a bastard?"
"All dwarfs are bastards in their father's eyes."
"You are your mother's trueborn son of Lannister."
"Am I?" the dwarf replied, sardonic. "Do tell my lord father. My mother dies birthing me, and he's never been sure."
"I don't even know who my mother was," Jon said.
"Some woman, no doubt. Most of them are." He favored Jon with a rueful grin. "Remember this, boy. All dwarfs may be bastards, yet not all bastards need be dwarfs." And with that he turned and sauntered back into the feast, whistling a tune. When he opened the door, the light from within threw his shadow clear across the yard, and for a moment Tyrion Lannister stood tall as a king.

Three things here:
-The advice to Jon and he making the fact he is a bastard his strength. To a certain extent, Jon already does this to become Lord Commander. But what of the line that not all bastards need be dwarfs. A hint of R+L=J?
-The line about Tywin not being so sure Tyrion was really his son. I know Boaz will latch onto this.
-The length of Tyrion's shadow a reference of his time as Hand or things to come as one of the Heads of the Dragon?

[the smiling weirwood]

I think it's a reference to Tyrion's inner character, which we get to see more of only later.

[Boaz]

TK, for some reason I've not been able to access the Martin page on the Chronicles Netowork for the last four days.

Regarding Jon and Benjen's conversation, I feel that Jon was compared to the Young Dragon. But Jon was not given command too early. He was counseled and he experienced war as a grunt first. Maester Aemon, The Old Bear, Ygritte, Sam, Donal Noye, Qhorin, and others all give Jon sage counsel and build upon the education that Eddard, Rodrik and Luwin gave him. Jon may die young, but it won't be in a foolhardy adventure to the North. No, he'll hold the Wall... no need to go looking for adventure. The Other will come to him.

The person to compare against Daeron Targaryen is Robb Stark. The Young Dragon and the Young Wolf.

Both were proclaimed kings in their teens.

Both marched south.

Neither had battlefield experience before becoming generals.

Both developed a taste for southern women.

Both were victorious on the battlefield.

Both were murdered in castles where they sought to spend the night.

As for Tyrion, I love his line about his father questioning his mother's fidelity. As the son of the richest, most powerful, and most capable lord of the realm, Tyrion has grown up as a bastard. Amazing.

Now compare these two conversations. Compare the speakers... First, we have Benjen Stark and his nephew, Jon Snow. In the second, we have Tyrion Lannister and Jon Snow. Compare the gist of the interaction... Benjen gives Jon a history lesson while Tyrion gives him a life lesson.

Why would Tyrion Lannister go out of his way to assist Jon Snow? Isn't it strange that he gives better counsel than Jon's own uncle?

Is it Tyrion's inner character (to quote tsw, above) that makes him seem regal? Or is there something in his future? Or his past?

You all know I love the Tyraen Targaryen concept. What if Tyrion really is Aerys' bastard? Then we should not be surprised that his shadow appears kingly. Nor should we be surprised when Maester Aemon Targaryen calls him a giant.

Just as the Benjen-Jon conversation regarding the Young Dragon turned out differently than originally portrayed, what about the second conversation. What if Jon turns out not to be a bastard? What if he finds out that he is a trueborn son? What if Tyrion finds out that he really is a bastard?

Most of us think that R+L=J. Now combine this with Tyraen Targaryen... this would mean that Benjen is not Jon's uncle by Eddard (as we all suspect) but by Lyanna. On the other hand it means that now Tyrion is Jon's uncle as well. This might better explain the value of his advice. Of course, neither Tyrion nor Jon suspect their hidden Targaryen heritage... but I think that in Westeros that blood calls to blood. Somehow hidden blood calls to hidden blood. Somehow strangers come together.

For instance, Aemon calls Tyrion a giant. Bella offers to ring Gendry's bell. Aemon tells Jon his life story. It would better explain Jon and Tyrion's friendship.

Once again I don't have any hard evidence of Tyraen Targaryen, just a feeling.

Did I latch onto stuff enough for you, TK?