Michael Martinez

[I, Brian]

Has anybody here ever read any of the essays on JRR Tolkien by Michael Martinez?

http://www.michael-martinez.com/

Simply curious, both about the reception of Michael's work, and general literary commentaries on Tolkien.

[Teresa Edgerton]

I know I've read a couple of essays by Michael Martinez here and there online, and found them interesting enough that I was tempted to buy his Understanding Middle Earth, though I never did.

He is certainly prolific and ubiquitous, particularly online, but I don't know how he is regarded by more "serious" Tolkien experts like Tom Shippey and David Bratman. I used to belong to the Mythopoeic Society -- I still might, if they hadn't been so slipshod about sending out all of their publications I had subscribed to -- and [i]there[/] is a group with plenty of members who turn out articles of staggering erudition in the best academic style on a regular basis. Not just on Tolkien and the Inklings, though Tolkien, Lewis, and Williams are their main focus. (On the other hand, there were and probably still are also plenty of members like me, who couldn't write a proper scholarly article to save my life). But that was many years ago, before the emergence of Michael Martinez, so I'm not in a position to know what the Mythsoc people think of him.

[I, Brian]

No problem, thanks for the reply.

[Shoegaze99]

There was a time when Michael Martinez was something of a Usenet whipping boy, a guy always in the middle of long, drawn-out flame wars and bitter arguments - flame wars more often than notthat he brought upon himself. He was pretty much the most hated Tolkien fan on Usenet. This was during a time when guys like David Salo, who worked on the languages for Peter Jackson's films, were regulars on rec.arts.books.tolkien, well before the movie fans polluted the groups (and in fact well before the movies were even announced).

Martinez has done some fine enough Tolkien writings, but he is also (or at least was) a terribly arrogant, sometimes nasty person prone to lashing out at people who disagree with him in juvenline tirades and entirely unwilling to engage in reasoned discourse. He stopped posting in around 2000 or so, largely because he had made so many enemies among his fellow amateur Tolkien scholars that he couldn't post at all without that post turning into a flamewar. And I don't simply mean enemies with nameless, faceless trolls. I mean enemies with other well-spoken, well-versed Tolkien aficionados.

Mind you, I've read and enjoyed some of his essays. I don't think they hold a candle to the work of folks like Tom Shippey, but they're still better than the average Internet fan writing, and there is no question he knows his stuff pretty well. Yet that said, there is arguably more fun to be had Googling his name in Google Groups at rec.arts.books.tolkien and alt.fan.tolkien and taking a gander at some of the fire-breathing that went on back in the day.

I don't have anything against the guy and I wish him well, but I can't deny that when I see his name, I don't think of what he had to say about Tolkien, but rather about all that other stuff surrounding his online personality. He always came across as small-minded, mean-spirited and arrogant to the extreme, which will always distract me from his writings. But good luck to him.

[Michael Martinez]

Originally Posted by Shoegaze99

There was a time when Michael Martinez was something of a Usenet whipping boy, a guy always in the middle of long, drawn-out flame wars and bitter arguments - flame wars more often than notthat he brought upon himself. He was pretty much the most hated Tolkien fan on Usenet. This was during a time when guys like David Salo, who worked on the languages for Peter Jackson's films, were regulars on rec.arts.books.tolkien, well before the movie fans polluted the groups (and in fact well before the movies were even announced).

It would have served you better to tell the truth on that subject. I've been called many things, but "whipping boy" is one of the funniest. The flame wars that David and others started may have revolved around me, but that was the shortcoming of others.

Martinez has done some fine enough Tolkien writings, but he is also (or at least was) a terribly arrogant, sometimes nasty person prone to lashing out at people who disagree with him in juvenline tirades and entirely unwilling to engage in reasoned discourse.

And how do you feel your description of me should be regarded by anyone else? What if I were to say you were an "arrogant sometimes nasty person prone to lashing out at people who disagree with you"?

BTW -- do you have any links to where I've actually done that?

It's one thing to lie about people when you think you can get away with it, but now that I've found your poison pen post, I would be interested to see an example where I lashed out at someone simply for disagreeing with me.

...He stopped posting in around 2000 or so, largely because he had made so many enemies among his fellow amateur Tolkien scholars that he couldn't post at all without that post turning into a flamewar.

Also untrue.

...And I don't simply mean enemies with nameless, faceless trolls. I mean enemies with other well-spoken, well-versed Tolkien aficionados.

Who remain nameless nonetheless.

Mind you, I've read and enjoyed some of his essays. I don't think they hold a candle to the work of folks like Tom Shippey, but they're still better than the average Internet fan writing, and there is no question he knows his stuff pretty well.

And which of my essays do you feel fall into the same line of writing as Shippey's? His topic matter is generally viewed as far from my own by people who have actually read us both.

I don't have anything against the guy and I wish him well,

If that were true, wouldn't you have been more truthful and less toxic in your remarks?

Here I hadn't done or said anything to you (so far as I know), and when someone came asking about me you launched into a flame post. Why should you feel such vehemence toward someone whom you've probably never met?

[HieroGlyph]

Sir, it might have been best not to reply.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and every opinion is informed only to a certain degree, whether truth or fiction, agenda or honesty.

Who am I to talk, you might ask? I am no-one: I barely know SG.99 nor have I researched his posts for any bias; I dont know who this Martinez is, either.

But I had read this post before and SG.99's reply did not sway me one way or the other: if I found the time to seek out others opinions or knowledge of Tolkien that abound on the net, then all I'd prefer to read would be mature discussions.

Let folks make up their own minds.

[Teresa Edgerton]

Originally Posted by HieroGlyph

Sir, it might have been best not to reply.

Well said, HieroGlyph. I feel for the man finding something like Shoegaze's post on our forums, but it is an unfortunate fact that public figures have to put up with a certain amount of that sort of thing.

Of course, if he is going to be a member here, he will be treated with the same civility and respect as all our other members -- and held to that same standard.

[Michael Martinez]

Originally Posted by HieroGlyph

Sir, it might have been best not to reply.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and every opinion is informed only to a certain degree, whether truth or fiction, agenda or honesty.

Opinions are one thing. Lies are another. For the record, I am the Martinez referred to. And I don't much appreciate being lied about.

Perhaps you don't mind if people lie about you. That's fine. I'm don't go around the Internet slamming other people, especially people who haven't slammed me.

It's a shame more people aren't as considerate of strangers as that.

[Michael Martinez]

Originally Posted by Kelpie

Of course, if he is going to be a member here, he will be treated with the same civility and respect as all our other members -- and held to that same standard.

It doesn't say much for the forum's standard that the post was allowed to remain in place.

That said, I'll say no more on this topic, although I would indeed be curious to see a link to any post where I flamed someone for disagreeing with me.

If anyone really wants to know what David Bratman and other Tolkien scholars have said about me in the past, they need only browse the Mythopoeic Society's discussion list archive at Yahoo! Groups. The group name is mythsoc.

I cannot post the URL as I haven't made 15 posts here.

[I, Brian]

Hi Michael, and welcome to the chronicles network.

As for the post in question - I wasn't actually aware of it until this thread was returned to my attention just now.

As it's already been quoted and referenced, disputed, and no further discussion suggested from it, I'll take the position that any future comments must remain focused on the writings, not writer, or else be removed.

[Lacedaemonian]

Hello Michael and welcome to the forum!

I think academic debate sometimes lends itself to heated discussion, especially when the subject matter is the passion of the debators. It would not surprise me if some people were to view participants in such debates as Shoegaze described in his post. It must have been a shock to come across a post about yourself. I would find this far too surreal (even more so as I am not esteemed in any remote way). I am sure Shoegaze did not mean for you to read this and so we could not accuse him of 'vehemence'. Also I am sure he did not mean to muddy your name, he did invite people to do searches on those subject matters and discover for themselves. He was writing from memory, which let's face it is not always the most reliable human facility.

I am intrigued by this whole fracas.

[Michael Martinez]

Originally Posted by Lacedaemonian

Hello Michael and welcome to the forum!

I think academic debate sometimes lends itself to heated discussion, especially when the subject matter is the passion of the debators....

You know, the sad thing is that academcs tell me all the time, "You can check with so-and-so on this question, but don't mention my name as there is no love lost between us."

...It would not surprise me if some people were to view participants in such debates as Shoegaze described in his post. It must have been a shock to come across a post about yourself. I would find this far too surreal (even more so as I am not esteemed in any remote way). I am sure Shoegaze did not mean for you to read this and so we could not accuse him of 'vehemence'. Also I am sure he did not mean to muddy your name, he did invite people to do searches on those subject matters and discover for themselves. He was writing from memory, which let's face it is not always the most reliable human facility.

I am intrigued by this whole fracas.

Well, as Brian would like to see the fracas not become a deterrent to the community, I'm done with what I've seen.

I cannot promise to be any more of a regular here than I am elsewhere, as I don't have as much time for all things Tolkien as I used to.

Which may work out for the best in the long run.

[Mark Robson]

Originally Posted by Michael Martinez

I cannot promise to be any more of a regular here than I am elsewhere, as I don't have as much time for all things Tolkien as I used to.

Which may work out for the best in the long run.

Having just scanned this thread for the first time, I find this last statement the saddest. For anyone held in any esteem as being knowledgeable in a certain subject to lose their passion for it is a great shame. I'm also not acquainted with your name, or your writings, but it saddens me that you have lost your appetite for a subject that has gripped many for so long.

Good luck to you. I hope you find happiness in whatever subject you turn to next.

[Raynor]

I have read only a few articles by him, but so far I thoroughly enjoyed them.

[Lacedaemonian]

This may be a first.

Some of you may be aware of a person named Michael Martinez. Whatever his credentials may be, it is next to impossible to maintain a thread that mentions his name in any way, without his becoming irate over something said (or not said) about him, resulting in a flood of posts and e-mails, either from him or his surrogates, demanding apologies, retractions, and other measures to correct whatever wrong he feels has been perpetrated upon him.

So, in what I hope to be a unique measure, the name, topic, or anything else to do with Michael Martinez is hereby banned from this site. Any post that even mentions his name will be removed, and current threads that have anything whatsoever to do with Michael Martinez will be removed as well.

This was a quote from thetolkienforum.com

Wow Michael I merely live to emulate your greatness! I have been banned from sites but I have never had any discussion of me banned. You are a god in my eyes.