The use of prophecy in fantasy

[asdar]

I know I'm attacking very near the heart of the fantasy genre, but I hate the use of true prophecy in fantasy.

I find that Prophecy is often used as a driving factor in the story, a sort of motivation to the writer, an outline of where everything should go. Some authors use spot prophecies, but on a lesser scale it seems the same thing to me. It seems a short cut to avoiding logical development in characters and storyline.

I find that the use often is a sign of a story lacking in depth and reason. The characters will do things to either fulfill or reject the prophecy instead of doing things for power or gold or some other sensible motivating factor.

"The world will end if this prophecy...," Choice A) comes true, or B) doesn't come true.

The whole issue boils down to two issues for me. The first is the concept of fate versus choice and the second is the entire time travel paradox. If the future is set and the prophecy will come true then what are all the choices along the way for?

[cornelius]

the prophecy in my writings is more linked to magic and such. The three heroes have to find a set of books, with which they can revive the fainting magic in the world. This is but a start, they have to unite all races in peace to restore the full Craft. ( this is but a very rough sketch of the prophecy)
it's a bit like the Nerevar cult in morrowind, for those who are more familiar with that

[kyektulu]

I find alot of fantasy stories (melanie rawn's work is one example) incorperate elements from long gone civilisations and alot of these had thier cultures completely immersed around prophicies and fables. So I come to expect these in a book when I read writing from such an author.
To make phrophicies and things work I think the writer should really try to use them in the background of a novel, in a charecter belief system and culture...
However I dont mind reading books based around them after all im reading a fantasy book and basicly in a persons imagination anything goes...

[kyektulu]

I hope that made sense.

[dwndrgn]

I've seen prophecies used well (Goodkind's SOT) and poorly ~ um, can't think of one at the moment, but I've seen them. I don't have anything against them but nor do I have a strong liking of them either. They're just another plot device that can be done well or done poorly. Whatever works for the story is ok for me.

[asdar]

It made sense to me Kyektulu.

I can't begin to name the number of good books I've read with prophecies. It's just recently that I've come to dread them. I don't want to throw the books out, I just find that in most cases the prophecy becomes the story.

If I ever start to sound like I'm criticizing anyone personally please shut me down. I don't intend to and I'm supportive of anyone's ideas in the area of writing.

In the case of a prophecy about the return of magic I see the direction and conclussion right from the start. I think it's entirely possible that the book will be enjoyable but I feel like I know the story already. I can come to love or hate the characters and sub plots along the way and still enjoy the book but the story is already told.

There are books that start with someone telling the story in retrospect. "I remember the tale of the heroes of the ....," followed by the story. To me this is parallel to a prophecy in that we know the narrator lives.

In contrast would be a story where the people need to learn how to plow fields because they could no longer force the magic through the ground, followed by a special group or person that sets forth on a quest to figure it all out without any magical guidance of prophecy.

What I see as the value of prophecy is the revelation of clues throughout the book. It's like the foreshadow scenes in the movie The Ring where clues were given to the audience. Most of the enjoyment of the movie for me was travelling step by step with the investigative reporter to track down all of the clues.

The same is true for me in heavily prophecy influenced fantasy. I find more and more that when I see a fantasy I know within a hairs breath where the story will go. I find myself saying one of three things, "what will happen if the prophecy is fulfilled, what will happen if it's broken," or at best, "how can the given prophecy be twisted to mean something else."

[Teresa Edgerton]

Prophecies are, historically, very much a part of the magical world view. But in that context they are usually highly ambiguous and make more sense after they come to pass than they did before, allowing people to misinterpret them and stumble around making the wrong choices in a thoroughly natural way, rather than proceed from point A to point B steadily and confidently following a prearranged agenda.

In other words, I like prophecies to fulfill the same role in a fantasy novel that they did traditionally: to motivate characters and push them into action (or inaction) -- and as often as not the wrong action or inaction -- rather than working as a user's manual by which (if he follows it closely) a hero is assured of success.

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by Kelpie

Prophecies are, historically, very much a part of the magical world view. But in that context they are usually highly ambiguous and make more sense after they come to pass than they did before, allowing people to misinterpret them and stumble around making the wrong choices in a thoroughly natural way, rather than proceed from point A to point B steadily and confidently following a prearranged agenda.

Quite agreed - prophecy can become a cliche if used too flippantly.

Additionally, with prophecy comes predetermination - which means that the character has no Free Will to make their own decisions, rendering the protagonists involved little more than puppets on strings, if not careful.

If you look at modern religious prophecies, they remain vague and ambiguous, and often claimed to apply at any given contemporary period - never fulfilled, but always "nearly there".

That in itself can serve as a fascinating vehicle for plot...

[shaebedi]

Originally Posted by asdar

It made sense to me Kyektulu.

I can't begin to name the number of good books I've read with prophecies. It's just recently that I've come to dread them. I don't want to throw the books out, I just find that in most cases the prophecy becomes the story.

If I ever start to sound like I'm criticizing anyone personally please shut me down. I don't intend to and I'm supportive of anyone's ideas in the area of writing.

In the case of a prophecy about the return of magic I see the direction and conclussion right from the start. I think it's entirely possible that the book will be enjoyable but I feel like I know the story already. I can come to love or hate the characters and sub plots along the way and still enjoy the book but the story is already told.

There are books that start with someone telling the story in retrospect. "I remember the tale of the heroes of the ....," followed by the story. To me this is parallel to a prophecy in that we know the narrator lives.

In contrast would be a story where the people need to learn how to plow fields because they could no longer force the magic through the ground, followed by a special group or person that sets forth on a quest to figure it all out without any magical guidance of prophecy.

What I see as the value of prophecy is the revelation of clues throughout the book. It's like the foreshadow scenes in the movie The Ring where clues were given to the audience. Most of the enjoyment of the movie for me was travelling step by step with the investigative reporter to track down all of the clues.

The same is true for me in heavily prophecy influenced fantasy. I find more and more that when I see a fantasy I know within a hairs breath where the story will go. I find myself saying one of three things, "what will happen if the prophecy is fulfilled, what will happen if it's broken," or at best, "how can the given prophecy be twisted to mean something else."

I know what you mean. And I know its not a book but to give a wonderful story where prophecy worked very well and enhanced the story was the movie, bulletproof monk... the prophecy actually took on a twist which was refreshing to see. Again prophecy is overused in most cases though and gives no room for depth of characters in the story because they are bound by the prophecy...

[Stephen Palmer]

One word: overdone!

[HareBrain]

It is overdone, and often used lazily by newcomers who seem to think it's as essential a part of the fantasy landscape as dragons. (Tolkien also uses it lazily in my view - there's nothing else about the (meta)physics of his world that suggests why Malbeth the Seer would have been able to look forward through time.)

However, I sometimes like cryptic prophesies, because you get the chance to solve the clues and spot the elements coming together before the characters do. And I quite like twists such as where the evil guys set out to thwart the prophecy and thus actually bring it about, etc. But then I'm easily pleased.

[Toby Frost]

I dislike prophesies for several reasons.

Firstly, they're overused (as HareBrain points out - our posts overlapped). They may have been part of the ancient/medieval mindset, but they've been done to death. If I know a fantasy novel contains a prophesy I'll be waiting for it to apply to a simple farmboy, picked by a long-bearded wizard, who will one day be the true king. I feel that fantasy writers should be willing, or at least able, to chuck out all of these old concepts and start afresh. If you want to include prophesies, or dragons, or whatever, fine - but there's no obligation to, especially if they bring nothing new or good to the work.

Secondly, they can weaken the drama. If the prophesy's there, it's either going to come true (cliche) or will/won't in some unexpected way (fast becoming a cliche, and a good way for a writer to show off how clever he think he is). I find it takes away a lot of the tension if the character is destined to succeed.

Thirdly, I don't like the whole idea of predestination. This is sheer personal preference, but I dislike the whole man-born-to-rule concept that underlies a lot of fantasy. I dislike the whole idea of the Great Man and his adoring band of followers (especially if said Great Man is spouting politics) and would rather see some (well-written) nobody do the difficult work.

That said, I have a friend who's writing a book about a prophesied hero who simply isn't up to the job, and because it's written well, it does work. But as much of the story is about the tricks and manipulation used by various people to make sure that the prophesy comes true in one way or another, or at least seems to. But that's a different sort of story, I suspect.

[chopper]

Originally Posted by Teresa Edgerton

In other words, I like prophecies to fulfill the same role in a fantasy novel that they did traditionally: to motivate characters and push them into action (or inaction) -- and as often as not the wrong action or inaction -- rather than working as a user's manual by which (if he follows it closely) a hero is assured of success.

yep, me too. a prophecy should not be the be-all and end-all of any fantasy story. instead, the author should use it to create/enable the conflicts that drive the characters of the story. if you look at Eddings, all of his stuff relies - almost too heavily - on prophecy and predestination.

now curses - curses are much more fun...

[Teresa Edgerton]

Originally Posted by Tobytwo

I dislike the whole idea of the Great Man and his adoring band of followers (especially if said Great Man is spouting politics) and would rather see some (well-written) nobody do the difficult work.

Like, um ...

Originally Posted by Tobytwo

a simple farmboy, picked by a long-bearded wizard, who will one day be the true king.

??????

[Culhwch]

Wow, talk about a blast from the past, Teresa reffered to as 'Kelpie'!

I can't say that I think propehecies are overdone, but maybe I just don't read enough bad fantasy. I do like to stick to the good stuff, as a rule. The only example I'm coming up with is Martin's Ice and Fire, where I think the prophecies are done quite well - they are definitely of Harebrain's 'cryptic' category, leading the reader to draw clues together and look for signs everywhere, increasing the level of engagement with the story. Done like this, I don't have an issue with them. Personally, they're not something I've ever used in my own writing, but I wouldn't discount it in the future...