Jon Snow -- Beware of Spoilers

[juleska]

Originally Posted by Rufio

The threat of Robert to Jon makes a lot more sense if he's Rhaegar's son, Robert hates Rhaegar above all. Also, despite the shifts in our perception of those two characters, Robert isn't a cold blooded child killer. He couldn't look at Rhaenys and Aegon's bodies, and Tywin ordered those killings knowing that they had to be done but that Robert wouldn't relish it (let alone Ned). Also if I remember correctly he had to be talked into eventually putting the hit on Dany.

I disagree. Robert didn't distinguish which Targ was the father, to him they were all the same. He refers to Dany as a "whore" and regrets not having her or her brother killed when he had the chance, and they were not Rhaegar's children. His hatred of Rhaegar was amplified by his jealousy over Rhaegar's thing with Lyanna, but apart from that....a Targ is a Targ is a Targ is a Targ.

[Keebs411]

Originally Posted by juleska

I disagree. Robert didn't distinguish which Targ was the father, to him they were all the same. He refers to Dany as a "whore" and regrets not having her or her brother killed when he had the chance, and they were not Rhaegar's children. His hatred of Rhaegar was amplified by his jealousy over Rhaegar's thing with Lyanna, but apart from that....a Targ is a Targ is a Targ is a Targ.

which i always found funny because wasnt Roberts family supposed to have some targ blood line with in it as well? For some reason i thought it was one of the reason he was said to have the stonger claim to the throne once the rebellion ended? i could be a bit off but i was under that assumption.

[juleska]

Originally Posted by Keebs411

which i always found funny because wasnt Roberts family supposed to have some targ blood line with in it as well? For some reason i thought it was one of the reason he was said to have the stonger claim to the throne once the rebellion ended? i could be a bit off but i was under that assumption.

I believe you're correct.....but Robert often talked out of both sides of his mouth.

He really was a terrible person.

[viZion]

Originally Posted by juleska

I disagree. Robert didn't distinguish which Targ was the father, to him they were all the same. He refers to Dany as a "whore" and regrets not having her or her brother killed when he had the chance, and they were not Rhaegar's children. His hatred of Rhaegar was amplified by his jealousy over Rhaegar's thing with Lyanna, but apart from that....a Targ is a Targ is a Targ is a Targ.

This is exactly what I was thinking. I don't believe Robert started hating Targs until Rhaegar "stole" Lyanna and from then on his rage extended to ALL Targs.

When I said he advocated killing babies I knew that it was Tywin that actually ordered that killing. So what did Robert - the good guy who doesn't like killing kids - do to punish Tywin? He married Tywin's daughter making her arguably the 2nd most powerful person in the Kingdom. Then he took out an excessive amount of loans from House Lannister which arguably made them the most powerful House in the Kingdom.

So he wasn't really all that broken up about the dead children. It doesn't really matter that he couldn't look at their bodies. That's just his way of avoiding having to feel any guilt for trying to wipe everyone with a certain last name. Robert really was a terrible person.

[ArstenWhitebeard]

Originally Posted by juleska

I believe you're correct.....but Robert often talked out of both sides of his mouth.

He really was a terrible person.

Originally Posted by viZion

Robert really was a terrible person.

I third that statement.

[Rufio]

Originally Posted by viZion

This is exactly what I was thinking. I don't believe Robert started hating Targs until Rhaegar "stole" Lyanna and from then on his rage extended to ALL Targs.

When I said he advocated killing babies I knew that it was Tywin that actually ordered that killing. So what did Robert - the good guy who doesn't like killing kids - do to punish Tywin? He married Tywin's daughter making her arguably the 2nd most powerful person in the Kingdom. Then he took out an excessive amount of loans from House Lannister which arguably made them the most powerful House in the Kingdom.

So he wasn't really all that broken up about the dead children. It doesn't really matter that he couldn't look at their bodies. That's just his way of avoiding having to feel any guilt for trying to wipe everyone with a certain last name. Robert really was a terrible person.

I agree he may not have been crying himself to sleep over the murders but he was glad not to have had to do it himself. I'm not making him out to be a good guy, he was awful in almost every way, but I don't think a thirst for child's blood was one of them. He did hate all Targs, seemingly, but Rhaegar above all others. His grandmother was Targaryen, and supposedly the founder of the Baratheon house, I forget his name, was the bastard brother of Aegon the Conquerer.

[viZion]

Right, and getting back to the original point: Jon was as good as dead if Robert found out he's Rhaegar's son. Now that I think about it, it doesn't even matter if Robert really would have killed Jon. What does matter is that it was Lyanna's perception that Robert would have Jon killed and that's why she told Ned to hide Jon's identity. And, again, this would hold true if Rhaegar was the father or if Aerys was the father but the entire theory is more fun if it's Rhaegar (see my post on the last page for why).

[Gry Wnd]

Anyone else find it hard to believe that GRRM told the answer to this question to an actor in the show??

[Boaz]

I find it hard to believe.

[Runic]

Originally Posted by Gry Wnd

Anyone else find it hard to believe that GRRM told the answer to this question to an actor in the show??

Not really J.R.R. Tolk...I mean J.K. Rowling told Alan Rickman about his whole plot arc from the first film, and before she had written the rest of the Harry Potter books. This gave him insider knowledge that the directors didn't have and gave him an acting advantage.

There are many cases where, if a writer had been able to give direct input to an actor, the film would've been a lot better (or if producers had actually read the original) the Clive Cussler novels Raise The Titanic and Sahara made poor films bearing little or no resemblance to the original story.

With G.R.R.M, we have him directly involved, and that is why its a good series.

Getting back to topic, or in this case, The Luke Skywalker moment, what if Mance is his dad? There is nothing to say that Mance isn't a Targ, and it would explain why Mance was at Winterfell in cognito for the Robert Feast.
Also, as said before the Skywalker moment needs a personal reveal to be truly effective. Mind you I guess an old letter would serve just as well, which means that all bets are still on the table, I could even be his dad.....

[ArstenWhitebeard]

Originally Posted by Runic

Getting back to topic, or in this case, The Luke Skywalker moment, what if Mance is his dad? There is nothing to say that Mance isn't a Targ, and it would explain why Mance was at Winterfell in cognito for the Robert Feast.

Mance was a wildling baby that the nights watch raised to be a Black Brother. so probably not a Targ, but this doesn't mean he isn't Jon's dad... I'm just not sure how it could all fit together. Mance sneaks into winterfell, seduces Lyanna. Lyanna then goes south and gets captured/imprisoned/seduced by Rhaegar or raped by Aerys, then Robert starts the war to get her back and the whole business takes less than 9 months?

[Runic]

I thought Mance was an crow who defected to the wildlings when the Night's Watch made him give up his cloak patched with red ribbon that a wilding woman had made for him?

[ArstenWhitebeard]

That is true as well. He was a wildling baby that they raised to be a "Crow" but he defected when he couldn't keep his red patched cloak (a very romantic story by the way) A cloak I believe he continued to wear as King beyond the wall, the Real "king in the North".

[Runic]

Thank you, I can remember the story of the cloak, and somewhat of the conversation he has with Jon, and there being some reason for him sneaking into Winterfell but couldn't remember him being a wildling babe. It obviously didn't strike me as important at the time!! Anyway my mention of Mance being his dad, I now put in the possibles due to age, but remove the Targ connection, but if Jon is riding south to Winterfell to rescue people, it would be a good Skywalker reveal. Hold on....what if his dad is Stannis and Bolton knows something....When Mel looks for Stannis all she sees is Jon....

[Ghosty]

A wise old man, Aemon, once said:

"Kill the boy, Jon Snow. Winter is almost upon us. Kill the boy and let the man be born."

Jon’s decision to change plans and go after Bolton – was a decision made after thoughts of Robb, Rickon, Bran, Sansa and Arya.

The decision was made by Jon the Boy not Jon the Man. Jon, up to this point, had failed to kill the boy. The death of Jon the Boy was necessary for the ‘man to be born.’