Jon Snow -- Beware of Spoilers

[Runic]

Originally Posted by pedro_1013

I don't exclude the possibility of Jon being really dead, but the mystery around his parents makes me feel/hope there's more story for Jon. Also if the Stark's are to rise again, that would be difficult without Jon. Bran, Arya and Rickon despite their powers are only kids and Sansa... i have no idea what Sansa can or will do.

About the R+L=J theory there's something i found in Eddard's POV:
“I will, ” Ned had promised her. That was his curse. Robert would swear undying love and
forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he’d made
Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he’d paid to keep them.

"Ned Stark kept his vows" and "the price he’d paid to keep them", maybe the price he had to pay was to make everyone believe that he broke his vows of marriage by generating a bastard, because he made a promise to Lyanna to protect Jon. And if Robert knew that Lyanna and Rhaegar had a son...

That almost makes Robert Lord Vader and Ned Obi-Wan!

But seriously, something just popped into my head about the whole building up Jon's character as a POV for The Wall, wildlings, Others, etc. We've also had Sam for that.

I recognise this as a flimsy almost transparent piece of evidence for Jon's survival, but I believe Qhorin had some kind of sense, which led him to sacrifice himself so Jon could get in with the wildlings, perhaps he knew that they would need more help at The Wall, or perhaps he could see something else....perhaps Qhorin was a Warg too, and is still out there somewhere?

Here's another warg theory, Jon warg's into his first attacker, pulling the blow short of being lethal, hence he felt the hilt......

or its just a vision in Mel's flames....

[juleska]

Originally Posted by Runic

Here's another warg theory, Jon warg's into his first attacker, pulling the blow short of being lethal, hence he felt the hilt......

Now that's one I hadn't considered....that actually makes sense and is another very simple potential justification for the "Jon is not Dead" camp.

[pedro_1013]

Originally Posted by Runic

That almost makes Robert Lord Vader and Ned Obi-Wan!

By R+L=J i meant Rhaegar not Robert

Originally Posted by Runic

Here's another warg theory, Jon warg's into his first attacker, pulling the blow short of being lethal, hence he felt the hilt......

or its just a vision in Mel's flames....

To me all the thoughts of pov characters are true and not deceptive, so I refuse to believe in any theory of this kind.

[The Imp]

Originally Posted by pedro_1013

By R+L=J i meant Rhaegar not Robert




To me all the thoughts of pov characters are true and not deceptive, so I refuse to believe in any theory of this kind.

Melisandre THINKS, or at least thought, that Stannis is AA.

Stannis was marching south into peril, the king who carried the fate of the world upon his shoulders, Azor Ahai reborn. Surely R’hllor would vouchsafe her a glimpse of what awaited him. Show me Stannis, Lord, she prayed. Show me your king, your instrument......................
Yet now she could not even seem to find her king. I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R’hllor shows me only Snow.

GRRM really lets us know here that while the person who is the POV character can believe things to be true, they aren't necessarily right. We've seen it many times before, but never as clearly as in this example, at least not that I can remember off hand

[mtzGr]

Originally Posted by The Imp

Melisandre THINKS, or at least thought, that Stannis is AA.

Stannis was marching south into peril, the king who carried the fate of the world upon his shoulders, Azor Ahai reborn. Surely R’hllor would vouchsafe her a glimpse of what awaited him. Show me Stannis, Lord, she prayed. Show me your king, your instrument......................
Yet now she could not even seem to find her king. I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R’hllor shows me only Snow.

GRRM really lets us know here that while the person who is the POV character can believe things to be true, they aren't necessarily right. We've seen it many times before, but never as clearly as in this example, at least not that I can remember off hand

I don't think that is the same thing as what pedro was saying. With Mel its basically "I believed x but it turned out to be y." In this case Mel's thoughts are still true, as in they are actually what she thinks, they just turn out to be wrong.

In Jon's case it's "I am experiencing x, but it turns out that y, or ~x." The only way to account for something like this is that he dreamed/imagined it, but it just doesn't follow the timeline of the chapter very well, unless the entire chapter was a dream (or a lie).

[pedro_1013]

Originally Posted by mtzGr

I don't think that is the same thing as what pedro was saying. With Mel its basically "I believed x but it turned out to be y." In this case Mel's thoughts are still true, as in they are actually what she thinks, they just turn out to be wrong.

In Jon's case it's "I am experiencing x, but it turns out that y, or ~x." The only way to account for something like this is that he dreamed/imagined it, but it just doesn't follow the timeline of the chapter very well, unless the entire chapter was a dream (or a lie).

This is what i tried to say, thanks mtzGr

[The Imp]

Originally Posted by The Imp

Melisandre THINKS, or at least thought, that Stannis is AA.

Stannis was marching south into peril, the king who carried the fate of the world upon his shoulders, Azor Ahai reborn. Surely R’hllor would vouchsafe her a glimpse of what awaited him. Show me Stannis, Lord, she prayed. Show me your king, your instrument......................
Yet now she could not even seem to find her king. I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R’hllor shows me only Snow.

GRRM really lets us know here that while the person who is the POV character can believe things to be true, they aren't necessarily right. We've seen it many times before, but never as clearly as in this example, at least not that I can remember off hand

My point was that a character can beleive something to be true and it can still be false. My belief is that this wasn't a dream, but we may not have been given vital pieces of information, in other words, there's deception by commission, and deception by omission

[mtzGr]

Originally Posted by The Imp

My point was that a character can beleive something to be true and it can still be false.

I don't think anyone would argue that point, I certainly agree with you.

Originally Posted by THE Imp

My belief is that this wasn't a dream, but we may not have been given vital pieces of information, in other words, there's deception by commission, and deception by omission

In reference to Needles theory (or some other variant), the argument pedro and I made doesn't apply, because in her theory Jon really is being stabbed, just within a different body; the experience is still true, so this is certainly a plausible stance. The argument is against Jon actually stabbing himself by warging into one of his attackers, or it being a vision of Mel's (the two theories Runic proposed).

[Peeves]

I have not been reading all the pages as of late. So i'm not up to date.
I was randomly thinking about Jon's death. And how GRRM would go from here.
When i realized that the reason why he wrote what he wrote is because maybe Jon must be out of commission for the story to progress.

You see, the feuds between the great house are in the end but the backdrop the story unfolds itself in. It is the others, and those who will eventually come to oppose them that are the backbone, the heart of it all.

Dany, Tyrion, and others are still stuck in essos though. So GRRM either had the choice of making Jon uphold the wall for the next couple of books till the the other characters stories have finally come full circle and get to the north OR the Others must be able to creep south. And for that, the Wall has to fall. Given Dany's visions and stuff, and the supposed magnitude of the coming war i'm thinking the latter.

So how do you go about making the wall fall, while maintaining Jon's image as the classic hero? Well first you have him do all the right things. Make it clear Jon has a plan, and might actually pull it off, hold them at the wall. And then find a loophole to make sure he can't execute his plans. Insert a couple of treacherous Night's Watch men.

Now it might be Jon is dead. I, on the other hand see him regaining conscious after the wall has fallen, rescued by a couple of loyal supporters and somewhat freed from his vows. This opens up a path to Winterfell (which Jon still needs to visit for A.Bolton and B.His recurring dream) and beyond for the fellowship.(Wrong book?)

[Clansman]

I will use GRRM's own words in a recent interview:

"So you think that Jon Snow is dead, do you?"

'Nuff said. GRRM is having way too much fun with this, and it will be fodder for discussion, totally on purpose, until we see how the Jon Snow death/undeath/warging issue is dealt with in WoW.

Personally, I subscribe to Needle's theory lock, stock and two smoking barrels.

[Peeves]

Needle theory being?
That he is Azor?

[Young stormlord]

I think that Jon has sent for Melisandre, during the two hours Jon and Tormund talked...

“Melisandre … look to the skies, she said.” He set the letter down. “A raven in a storm. She saw this coming.” When you have your answers, send to me.
“Might be all a skin o’ lies.” Tormund scratched under his beard. “If I had me a nice goose quill and a pot o’ maester’s ink, I could write down that me member was long and thick as me arm, wouldn’t make it so.”
“He has Lightbringer. He talks of heads upon the walls of Winterfell. He knows about the spearwives and their number.” He knows about Mance Rayder. “No. There is truth in there.”
“I won’t say you’re wrong. What do you mean to do, crow?”

Jon flexed the fingers of his sword hand. The Night’s Watch takes no part. He closed his fist and opened it again. What you propose is nothing less than treason. He thought of Robb, with snowflakes melting in his hair. Kill the boy and let the man be born. He thought of Bran, clambering up a tower wall, agile as a monkey. Of Rickon’s breathless laughter. Of Sansa, brushing out Lady’s coat and singing to herself. You know nothing, Jon Snow. He thought of Arya, her hair as tangled as a bird’s nest. I made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell … I want my bride back … I want my bride back … I want my bride back …
“I think we had best change the plan,” Jon Snow said.
They talked for the best part of two hours.

And then there's:

“I will send for ale,” Jon said, distracted. Melisandre was gone, he realized, and so were the queen’s knights. I should have gone to Selyse first.
She has the right to know her lord is dead. “You must excuse me. I’ll leave you to get them drunk.”

I think GRRM is lying by omission. Jon has plenty of time to send for Mel, talk with her during those two hours without informing Selyse, then go with the discussed plan.

Now, as for warging into corpses, I find it unlikely, unless one of the corpses had red hair. Why? This quote, Bran's chapter.

The moon was fat and full. Summer prowled through the silent woods, a long grey shadow that grew more gaunt with every hunt, for living game could not be found. The ward upon the cave mouth still held; the dead men could not enter. The snows had buried most of them again, but they were still there, hidden, frozen, waiting. Other dead things came to join them, things that had once been men and women, even children. Dead ravens sat on bare brown branches, wings crusted with ice. A snow bear crashed through the brush, huge and skeletal, half its head sloughed away to reveal the skull beneath. Summer and his pack fell upon it and tore it into pieces. Afterward they gorged, though the meat was rotted and half-frozen, and moved even as they ate it.

We are talking about animals that Brynden and Bran have no trouble warging into. Do you really think that those two guys would have let enemy host that can fly actually stay in front of the door if they could warg inside them? And, is that snow bear Varamyr's? Maybe they really can't warg into dead things?

[The Imp]

Originally Posted by Young stormlord

I think that Jon has sent for Melisandre, during the two hours Jon and Tormund talked...



And then there's:



I think GRRM is lying by omission. Jon has plenty of time to send for Mel, talk with her during those two hours without informing Selyse, then go with the discussed plan.

Now, as for warging into corpses, I find it unlikely, unless one of the corpses had red hair. Why? This quote, Bran's chapter.



We are talking about animals that Brynden and Bran have no trouble warging into. Do you really think that those two guys would have let enemy host that can fly actually stay in front of the door if they could warg inside them? And, is that snow bear Varamyr's? Maybe they really can't warg into dead things?

I completely agree about the two hour gap, and that was the point when Jon sent for Mel and planned whatever they planned. I disagree that dead ravens on branches outside the cave is any proof, either for or against, wargs being able to possess dead animals, be they man or beast. maybe if you could explain your reasoning a bit further?

[mtzGr]

Originally Posted by Young stormlord

I think that Jon has sent for Melisandre, during the two hours Jon and Tormund talked...

Now, as for warging into corpses, I find it unlikely, unless one of the corpses had red hair. Why? This quote, Bran's chapter.

I've already made a case against "the theory", but I'll say something on these two points you raise.

I do not think Jon summoned Mel, or went to her, within those two hours, though I will not deny that it is possible. I'll just pull some text which to me, suggests that she had not been seen (as always it is open for interpretation, and people can draw their own conclusions from the quotes).

I think we had best change the plan," Jon Snow said.
They talked for the best part of two hours.
Horse and Rory had replaced Fulk and Muly at the armory door with the change of watch.

Now while you may say this entails omission, I think it simply shows that he is talking with Tormund and only Tormund about what they should do (which is what had been going on). The second line is only meant to show the gravity of what Jon has decided. The third suggests that he hasn't left the room.

Horse and Rory fell in beside Jon as he left the Shieldhall. I should talk with Melisandre after I see the queen, he thought. If she could see a raven in a storm, she can find Ramsay Snow for me.

This is after his announcement in Shieldhall, where he also notices Mel show up in the crowd, suggesting that he hasn't spoken with Mel since the beginning of the chapter.

As for the corpses, I think it very unlikely that anything was done with them in the way of warging. Aside from the fact that there is no evidence of being able to warg into dead bodies, earlier in the chapter...

The corpses. Jon had almost forgotten them.
"What would the lord commander like us to do with his corpses?" asked Marsh when the living men had been moved.
"Leave them." If the storm entombed them, well and good. He would need to burn them eventually, no doubt, but for the nonce they were bound with iron chains inside their cells. That, and being dead, should suffice to hold them harmless.

It just seems like too much would have had to happen within that two hours.

[pedro_1013]

I think Needle's theory is almost impossible (i say almost because you never know). It's clear to me that during those 2 hours Jon never left the room and he didn't spoke to Melisandre after that. Also Jon has little or no experience with warging at all, and is very unlike that in a couple of hours he could mastered it. And even if Jon could warged so easily to a dead or living body, why would he do it? Because of Melisandre's premonition yes, but Jon's thoughts never indicate that he fears for is live.
Finally Jon's last word and thoughts: “Ghost” and "Stick them with the pointy end". Why would he say/thought this if he was not dying?
Resuming it's just to many thoughts too hide and too many misleading thoughts.

Here's my opinion:
Jon is betrayed by some members of the watch (that think they are doing the right think despite being hard, especially for Bowen Marsh that seems to be crying). Jon is stabbed four times (not certain about the fourth one) and he is dying. From "Only the cold...", i think it means that the others are coming. We will know this from a Melisandre POV or from a Prologue of Val, Tormund or Leather. That POV or prologue will start with the sound of a horn three times, and it will be caos, the wildlings, the men from the watch, the men from the Queen, all fighting and the others attacking the wall. In the middle of all that someone will save Jon (Melisandre or one of the wildings or both) and heal him (but it will take some time for him to heal, he will be off the game for a while).