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Old 21st February 2012, 12:31 AM   #556 (permalink)
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Re: Jon Snow -- Beware of Spoilers

Apropos of nothing, springs1971, I *love* your profile pic!! Mega flashback!
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Old 21st February 2012, 12:36 AM   #557 (permalink)
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Re: Jon Snow -- Beware of Spoilers

I picked it up to look at how he did his pov 'cos I was having problems nailing 3rd person multiple pov and then got into it (the first one). I've never really worried about knowing what comes next in a book - I often speed read and then go back and read it much more leisurely, - so I'm not worried about spoilers. (plus, I used to crib a lot with york notes)

So, anyway I was ambling along and ended up reading this thread and one of the comments happened to hit on something I'd just read in the second book and there you have it.*

Is it only because of spoilers I shouldn't? Or is it because I may not have the full understanding of what comes next? In which case a fresh eye, reading it for the first time, might find such a thread useful to add depth to their reading.


*it is possible I'm just weird

@Mesana, cheers!
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Old 21st February 2012, 01:12 AM   #558 (permalink)
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Re: Jon Snow -- Beware of Spoilers

Uh oh, Springs has found the George R.R. Martin forums... Quick, hide!


To be honest, I actually wished I had read this thread before the books, because I would have seen things a lot differently than I had. I went through the whole story so far thinking Jon really was Ned's son and never really thinking much about Lyanna and Ned's past at all.

I always thought it would be Dany who would win in the end when I was reading, after the last book I wasn't so sure anymore, but then I read this thread. It had never occurred to me that the grand finale, who wins the 'game of thrones' etc, might actually be a joint effort (heads of the dragon).

Right now I'm just not sure where Aegon fits in with all this, introducing him in the last book was an unexpected twist to everything. (at least for me)
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Old 21st February 2012, 04:03 AM   #559 (permalink)
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Re: Jon Snow -- Beware of Spoilers

springs1971 Welcome to our corner of the SFC! As to your question, weirdness is a natural part of life around here! But I have to say that even though I too read and re-reread my favorite stories to shreds you may find many things here that, to me anyway, I would not have wanted to know ahead of my first reading. Just fair warning, again welcome!
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Old 21st February 2012, 04:28 AM   #560 (permalink)
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Re: Jon Snow -- Beware of Spoilers

Hi! New to the forum and literally just finished reading aDwD about three hours ago. Then went to wash dishes, and independently came up with the "Jon is not Jon" theory. Then Googled, and got here.

Wanted to add something that I think is under-touched upon: Jon is *really* not like himself in his last chapter, especially when getting the letter. A number of his anecdotes ("as we say," etc) are, unless I'm remembering very wrong, unlike anything he's ever said before. And his reaction to the letter is totally out of character based on everything we've seen since he took the Black.

I can't figure out exactly how the Body Switch would take place if Jon is not Jon, and to me that seems a little too...convenient. Nevertheless, it's very plausible and I think at this point it's the most likely situation.

But I was reminded of another fairly recent surprise fantasy-series death: Dumbledore. The death, which seemed like a super-horrible ambush/betrayal/murder was anything but. And I think something like this is in play here, too. Jon is very clearly not himself (at least in terms of attitude) in that chapter. And why cry if you're doing something that you feel is just, from the perspective of Bowen Marsh? If Jon really ruined the Night's Watch that badly, you should be elated to stab him.

Of course, if there's some collusion between Marsh/other assailants/the Giant distraction/etc...that informs the entire thing way better.

Finally (to wrap up a long first post,) there's no evidence that anything in the letter came to pass -- and the only person with knowledge of everything in the letter (6 spearwives, etc. etc.) would be Jon himself*. Regardless of whether Jon was in on his own stabbing (and to what degree,) the letter does not fit with anything else in either aDwD or the preview we've seen of tWoW. So the letter, to me, seems a plant by Jon or someone extremely close to him, and not authentically Ramsay Snow.

*This does not explain the Reek reference, but everything else seems to fit. Again, I only wrapped the book a couple of hours ago, so those more read and re-read than I may be able to flesh out more detail.
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Old 21st February 2012, 08:10 AM   #561 (permalink)
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Re: Jon Snow -- Beware of Spoilers

[QUOTE=Warren_Paul;1580449]Uh oh, Springs has found the George R.R. Martin forums... Quick, hide!

Hee. Be nice.

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springs1971 Welcome to our corner of the SFC! As to your question, weirdness is a natural part of life around here! But I have to say that even though I too read and re-reread my favorite stories to shreds you may find many things here that, to me anyway, I would not have wanted to know ahead of my first reading. Just fair warning, again welcome!
Thanks for the welcome, Needle. To be honest I've kind of been lurking and reading the entries for a while, cos the film was done just up the road. So, I suspect I've already read most of the spoilers (but it hasn't ruined the enjoyment of the books, just like, I suspect, seeing LOTR on film first doesn't ruin the book for a reader)
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Old 21st February 2012, 11:08 AM   #562 (permalink)
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Re: Jon Snow -- Beware of Spoilers

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Originally Posted by harbinger31 View Post
Hi! New to the forum and literally just finished reading aDwD about three hours ago. Then went to wash dishes, and independently came up with the "Jon is not Jon" theory. Then Googled, and got here.

Wanted to add something that I think is under-touched upon: Jon is *really* not like himself in his last chapter, especially when getting the letter. A number of his anecdotes ("as we say," etc) are, unless I'm remembering very wrong, unlike anything he's ever said before. And his reaction to the letter is totally out of character based on everything we've seen since he took the Black.

I can't figure out exactly how the Body Switch would take place if Jon is not Jon, and to me that seems a little too...convenient. Nevertheless, it's very plausible and I think at this point it's the most likely situation.

But I was reminded of another fairly recent surprise fantasy-series death: Dumbledore. The death, which seemed like a super-horrible ambush/betrayal/murder was anything but. And I think something like this is in play here, too. Jon is very clearly not himself (at least in terms of attitude) in that chapter. And why cry if you're doing something that you feel is just, from the perspective of Bowen Marsh? If Jon really ruined the Night's Watch that badly, you should be elated to stab him.

Of course, if there's some collusion between Marsh/other assailants/the Giant distraction/etc...that informs the entire thing way better.

Finally (to wrap up a long first post,) there's no evidence that anything in the letter came to pass -- and the only person with knowledge of everything in the letter (6 spearwives, etc. etc.) would be Jon himself*. Regardless of whether Jon was in on his own stabbing (and to what degree,) the letter does not fit with anything else in either aDwD or the preview we've seen of tWoW. So the letter, to me, seems a plant by Jon or someone extremely close to him, and not authentically Ramsay Snow.

*This does not explain the Reek reference, but everything else seems to fit. Again, I only wrapped the book a couple of hours ago, so those more read and re-read than I may be able to flesh out more detail.
The only problem with Jon not being Jon in his last chapter in ADWD is that it would require GRRM to be be out-and-out deceitful, i.e. he would be giving the chapter the wrong name.

Now I'm quite prepared to accept that not everything a character knows is going to appear on the page, though GRRM's PoV characters are reasonably open in their thoughts. I'm prepared never to get to see what Littlefinger and Varys, amongst others, are thinking. (And I think this speaks for GRRM's honesty** within each individual chapter: if his characters were allowed to lie to the readers, we would be allowed to see a little of what's inside these characters' heads). I'm prepared to have events happen out of the sight of the PoV characters, or if a PoV character is around, for them not to mention the events until later, in an abbreviated form.

But calling a chapter, Jon, when the PoV character is not Jon, would be to risk breaking the readers' trust.

We have a theory that suggests that Jon may not be quite what he appears (appears to the other characters, that is), but we still believe that we are being shown what the real Jon is experiencing. (His thoughts may be guarded, but that's acceptable: if his concentration is on what's around him, there's no need for him to spend the time considering how clever he's being and how some people are in for a bit of a shock.)

So my conclusion is that GRRM is not out and out lying, and that Jon is the real Jon in that chapter.



** - GRRM is tricksy, but not a liar. His tricks are sleights of hand, like a magician's. The trickery occurs out of sight, while we're being distracted. We're told the truth, nothing but the truth, but not necessarily the whole truth.
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Old 21st February 2012, 03:04 PM   #563 (permalink)
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Re: Jon Snow -- Beware of Spoilers

Just to clarify my "Jon is not dead because Jon is not Jon" theory- I only say that his body is not his. The thoughts and actions presented as Jon are indeed Jon's. Therefore there is no deceit on the part of GRRM.
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Old 21st February 2012, 03:15 PM   #564 (permalink)
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Re: Jon Snow -- Beware of Spoilers

Quote:
Originally Posted by springs1971 View Post
I picked it up to look at how he did his pov 'cos I was having problems nailing 3rd person multiple pov and then got into it (the first one). I've never really worried about knowing what comes next in a book - I often speed read and then go back and read it much more leisurely, - so I'm not worried about spoilers. (plus, I used to crib a lot with york notes)

So, anyway I was ambling along and ended up reading this thread and one of the comments happened to hit on something I'd just read in the second book and there you have it.*

Is it only because of spoilers I shouldn't? Or is it because I may not have the full understanding of what comes next? In which case a fresh eye, reading it for the first time, might find such a thread useful to add depth to their reading.


*it is possible I'm just weird

@Mesana, cheers!
Having attempted to entice Springs to leave the Last Post Wins Thread I can safely say there is no possible involved
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Old 21st February 2012, 03:19 PM   #565 (permalink)
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Re: Jon Snow -- Beware of Spoilers

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Having attempted to entice Springs to leave the Last Post Wins Thread I can safely say there is no possible involved

There is a danger of me shoving you out of the hammock while I try to read , but you're safe for now, the critiques thread is keeping me very busy typing. Still, onto the third book now and stayed up to 1.30 in the morning reading it.
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Old 21st February 2012, 03:22 PM   #566 (permalink)
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Re: Jon Snow -- Beware of Spoilers

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There is a danger of me shoving you out of the hammock while I try to read , but you're safe for now, the critiques thread is keeping me very busy typing. Still, onto the third book now and stayed up to 1.30 in the morning reading it.

It is my hammock and I am not budging, however, I will share, I am a skinny old curmudgeon so there should be plenty of room.
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Old 28th February 2012, 11:40 PM   #567 (permalink)
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Re: Jon Snow -- Beware of Spoilers

I just had one more addition to Needle's theory. It was much discussed that Jon was acting very un-jonlike during this chapter in aDwD. This could be because he was warging into another body (the ice body if Needle is correct) and influenced by the feelings of that person (reanimated corpse). We see Varamyr discuss the kinds of animals that skinchangers "shouldn't" become because of how it changed their perspective. Perhaps Jon was acting in this way because of the influence of the real owner of the body he was occupying.
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Old 29th February 2012, 12:43 AM   #568 (permalink)
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Re: Jon Snow -- Beware of Spoilers

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I just had one more addition to Needle's theory. It was much discussed that Jon was acting very un-jonlike during this chapter in aDwD. This could be because he was warging into another body (the ice body if Needle is correct) and influenced by the feelings of that person (reanimated corpse). We see Varamyr discuss the kinds of animals that skinchangers "shouldn't" become because of how it changed their perspective. Perhaps Jon was acting in this way because of the influence of the real owner of the body he was occupying.
Welcome to the forum

I don't think what you say is right, because we also know from the Varmyr chapter and from Bran chapters that people don't like having their minds invaded. The bodies in the ice cell were dead, but "fresh", giving Jon the opportunity to warg into a body without having to fight the living inhabitant.
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Old 29th February 2012, 09:27 PM   #569 (permalink)
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Re: Jon Snow -- Beware of Spoilers

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Welcome to the forum

I don't think what you say is right, because we also know from the Varmyr chapter and from Bran chapters that people don't like having their minds invaded. The bodies in the ice cell were dead, but "fresh", giving Jon the opportunity to warg into a body without having to fight the living inhabitant.
Thanks! I like it here. Haven't been active on a book thread since college.

I'm going to have to disagree with you, Imp. If Melisandre were to have reanimated the body, at least some part of the original inhabitant would have remained a la Beric Dondarrion. That remaining personality is what I'm thinking was influencing Jon, much like the imprint from the Eagle influenced Varamyr to hate Jon.
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Old 1st March 2012, 03:08 AM   #570 (permalink)
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Re: Jon Snow -- Beware of Spoilers

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Originally Posted by Tharkun View Post
I just had one more addition to Needle's theory. It was much discussed that Jon was acting very un-jonlike during this chapter in aDwD. This could be because he was warging into another body (the ice body if Needle is correct) and influenced by the feelings of that person (reanimated corpse). We see Varamyr discuss the kinds of animals that skinchangers "shouldn't" become because of how it changed their perspective. Perhaps Jon was acting in this way because of the influence of the real owner of the body he was occupying.
Quote:
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Welcome to the forum

I don't think what you say is right, because we also know from the Varmyr chapter and from Bran chapters that people don't like having their minds invaded. The bodies in the ice cell were dead, but "fresh", giving Jon the opportunity to warg into a body without having to fight the living inhabitant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tharkun View Post
Thanks! I like it here. Haven't been active on a book thread since college.

I'm going to have to disagree with you, Imp. If Melisandre were to have reanimated the body, at least some part of the original inhabitant would have remained a la Beric Dondarrion. That remaining personality is what I'm thinking was influencing Jon, much like the imprint from the Eagle influenced Varamyr to hate Jon.
First let me say WELCOME THARKUN!

It did seem that the wrights retained some memory of who the were aka: going after the Lord Commander.

As the author of this not so crackpot theory I have to tell you this would not be the case with the body inhabited by Jon because: Mel did not reanimate the body, Jon warged it! Mel's only contribution was to glamour it to look like Jon.

However walking around with your mind in a dead body has to make you off just a little!
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