Jon Snow -- Beware of Spoilers

[Boaz]

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[AryaUnderfoot]

Originally Posted by asdar

The wall may well be considered a noble calling but Ned's reluctance to send the boy there mixed with every other single opinion in the book doesn't make it seem appealing to me.

I'm sure that Ned was merely reluctant to send Jon to the Wall because he had probably dreamed of giving Jon more than that- a wife, a family, and maybe some lands of his own.

Originally Posted by asdar

Jon looks like Ned, and while he could look like a stark following Lyanna, I think it's telling that he and Arya look alike, both sharing Neds looks apparently. Cousins often look alike but not as often as siblings.

Jon and Arya look alike, yes. But Ned himself said that Arya looks very much like her aunt, Lyanna. So Jon really could look like Lyanna, and Arya as well. It's quite possible for a family resemblance of that sort. My mom always says I look more like her younger sister...

Originally Posted by asdar

There's coroboration that Ned's and Wylla's baby was a milk brother and a few other references that aren't any where near conclussive but point to the given story being true.

"Milk brother" does not imply that either "brother" is the blood child of the mother. She can simply be the wetnurse for two different children. Of course there is a chance that Wylla was Jon's mother, but then why go through the trouble to hide it? Ned has been careful to make sure that everyone believes that he is the father of the child. I don't think there would be any purpose of hiding who the mother was, if she were a servant.

[asdar]

The book just doesn't show the Wall as a Noble calling except in one case and that's Ned's brother.

Every other person we meet there is either a criminal or an unwanted noble. You can try to spin it any way you want but that's just the way it is.

You said it exactly the way I feel it was as well. "because he had probably dreamed of giving Jon more than that- a wife, a family, and maybe some lands of his own."

I just doesn't make sense to me for the character that Ned is portrayed as in the book to send Jon to the wall without telling him the truth. It doesn't make sense that in all the years from Jon's birth to his being sent to the wall that Ned didn't let Catelyn in on the secret even if only to keep her from asking the wrong questions.

I agree that Milk brothers don't need to mean that either is the real child but again it's evidence that supports Jon being Ned and Wylla's son. It's the most direct support for Ned's claim of fatherhood. If nothing else it let's one more person in on the R+L=J conspiracy. Wylla, Ned and Howland at least.

I won't be surprised if it comes out that R+L = Jon, but I won't say it's true until I hear from Howland Reed or Wylla.

[AryaUnderfoot]

Originally Posted by asdar

Every other person we meet there is either a criminal or an unwanted noble. You can try to spin it any way you want but that's just the way it is.

I'm not sure if "unwanted noble" is quite the way I'd put it. Many of the nobles there are ones that were simply put out of the way. And regardless of what they had done, I don't consider Pip, Grenn, Sam, Qhorin Halfhand, Donal Noye, Commander Mormont, Maester Aemon, or Dolorous Edd to be beneath Jon in any way. Many of the men at the Wall are total vermin, but you could definitely find their equals, in one form or another, at court. The only difference is that the men on the Wall have been tried and found guilty for their crimes. I'm sure Gregor Clegane has them all beat.

[asdar]

That's a big difference. Jon wasn't convicted or guilty in fact of anything that would get him sent to the wall.

Was it good that Sam got sent to the wall? I think it was horrible for his father to send him there. It wasn't done for Sam's well being.

Jon chose to go on his own, and I don't blame Ned completely for his going, but I find it hard to believe that at that point Ned wouldn't either come clean with Cat or at the very minimum tell Jon of his true parentage.

I would understand if GRRM is just holding back the surprise. It doesn't hold together in my opinion that he would send his very loved sister's son without either trying to convince Cat with the truth or at least giving Jon his heritage.

If it comes to pass, then I'll accept it without bitterness.

[direghost]

Originally Posted by AryaUnderfoot

I'm not sure if "unwanted noble" is quite the way I'd put it. Many of the nobles there are ones that were simply put out of the way. And regardless of what they had done, I don't consider Pip, Grenn, Sam, Qhorin Halfhand, Donal Noye, Commander Mormont, Maester Aemon, or Dolorous Edd to be beneath Jon in any way. Many of the men at the Wall are total vermin, but you could definitely find their equals, in one form or another, at court. The only difference is that the men on the Wall have been tried and found guilty for their crimes. I'm sure Gregor Clegane has them all beat.

Not that this point needs seconding, but it doesn't have to be criminals on the wall. They kept sending ravens to Kings Landing, and all of the 5 Kings, asking for more troops. And of course, Stannis is now with the remnants of his army.
Benjen Stark's presence on the wall might have something to do with the R+L=J theory as well.

[asdar]

I agree that it doesn't have to be, but when they sent criminals there was a statement about criminals being sent. It's an illogical honor at best, but that's almost beside the point.

There are definitely some signs that R+L=J, I'm just saying there are straightforward signs that support Ned+??=Jon.

I should have never brought up the point, I do think that R+L will be the story. It fits too well with the story.

[Niolani]

just a quick thought about the Lyanna & Rhaegar being lovers instead of victim and rapist: if Lyanna was willingly with Rhaegar, why did Ned and the others have to fight the kingsguard? If she was not a prisoner, why wouldn't they let her brother in to see her or whatever?

[Winters_Sorrow]

Originally Posted by Niolani

just a quick thought about the Lyanna & Rhaegar being lovers instead of victim and rapist: if Lyanna was willingly with Rhaegar, why did Ned and the others have to fight the kingsguard? If she was not a prisoner, why wouldn't they let her brother in to see her or whatever?

Because her brother (and the troops he brought!) was one of the leaders of the Rebellion which killed their beloved Rhaegar perhaps?
Plus, they also knew of Jamie's treachery and the rape of Kings Landing so the thought of another baby getting murdered to cement Robert's rule on the throne was no doubt at the forefront of their minds. Plus that newborn was effectively the legimate King at that point (not sure if they knew Viserys & Dany had been spirited to safety - probably not)

[Boaz]

Originally Posted by direghost

Benjen Stark's presence on the wall might have something to do with the R+L=J theory as well.

Are you saying that Ned and Benjen knew of R+L=J, so they hatched a plan for Benjen to take the black and prepare the way for Jon on the Wall?

This might explain why Ned did not tell Jon of his true parentage... Ben was going to do it at the right time... perhaps right before Jon took his vows... or perhaps a few years after Jon had taken his vows and was entrenched in the Watch... or perhaps never. Perhaps Ned and Ben decided to share the raising of Jon... Ned at Winterfell and Ben at the Wall.

The only flaw so far that I see is that Ben should have claimed Jon as his son and spared Ned's honor and marriage. But then again, would Jon have taken the Black if his estranged father was already on the Wall?

[direghost]

Originally Posted by Boaz

Are you saying that Ned and Benjen knew of R+L=J, so they hatched a plan for Benjen to take the black and prepare the way for Jon on the Wall?

This might explain why Ned did not tell Jon of his true parentage... Ben was going to do it at the right time... perhaps right before Jon took his vows... or perhaps a few years after Jon had taken his vows and was entrenched in the Watch... or perhaps never. Perhaps Ned and Ben decided to share the raising of Jon... Ned at Winterfell and Ben at the Wall.

The only flaw so far that I see is that Ben should have claimed Jon as his son and spared Ned's honor and marriage. But then again, would Jon have taken the Black if his estranged father was already on the Wall?

I suspect that was part of it. Plus Benjen was one of two people alive who knew the R+L=J, and it kept him out of harm's way as well.

Benjen couldn't have claimed Jon was his own if any saw Ned coming back to Winterfell with the baby. At that point, Ned had to sacrifice his honor and his marriage for his promise to his dying sister. And when Jon volunteers for the wall, I remember Ned thinking "not yet, a couple years more" or something along those lines rather then "that is not what I intended for him." Who knows if we'll ever know, but I always thought it made sense.

[rudycrab]

Although there is alot of evidence pointing towards R+L = J, I am still not convinced. This whole Ned saying Jon was his son to save him from Robert doesn't flow. One of the things that shocks and angers Ned about the new kingly Robert is the fact that he would order the death of a child ( Dany). If he really thought that Robert would kill baby Jon, the son of Ned's sister, it would not be such a suprise to him that he would kill some completely unrelated girl. PLus, in the GoT on page 319, after seeing one of Robert's bastard's "Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger verison of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, why did he fill men with such lusts?" this seems like a strangely personal and self-chastising thought process for a guy thinking about his sister's child.

[Adasunshine]

I also always assumed Jon was Ned's as everytime Catelyn looked at him all she could see was a replica of her husband which made her seethe and hate him more (right with ya JohnSnow). I still believe that he's Ned's and don't really think he's a Targaryen although at the same time it wouldn't surprise me.

As for being Lord Commander of the Great Ice Wall not being enough of a destiny for Snow, I think that's wrong, when you think about it, it's perfect for him. I'm hoping he will revive everyone's faith in the Night's Watch and bring it back to it's former glory so that he is the true ultimate power over the Seven Kingdoms. Back in the old days, even the Targaryens (before they went mad) heeded the words of the Lord Commander. There's also the clans to think about, could he restore civilisation beyond the wall?

Boaz, I have also put almost all characters parentage under scrutiny, most of all Tyrion, something's not quite right there. I think Robb and Edmure's children are legitimate as their wives, if not their families, truly thought they loved them. As for Robert Arryn, PLEASE, that boy is so Littlefinger's. Lord Hoster married her off to Jon Arryn and I'm sure it's implied she was preggers at the time which is why it was such a good match - she was spoiled. I'm not saying this was Robert (he's way too young) but she and Littlefinger obviously kept in touch so that's my guess.

Just thinking out loud, forgive the rambling.

xx

[Raven]

rudycrab: I don't think Ned is shocked that Robert would order Dany's death: disappointed, perhaps, and certainly angry, but not shocked.

And why would he be? Remember, when Ned (in the R+L=J theory) finds out about Jon, he is fresh from seeing Robert at KL look at the bodies of two murdered children and saying 'I see no children, only dragonspawn'.

Robert refused point blank to punish the murderers of Rhaegar's children and he and Ned fell out badly over the issue. Now here is another of Rhaegar's children... and moreover one conceived on the woman Robert loves. (Whether by force or consent hardly matters - which would make Robert angrier? Rhaegar raping Lyanna or Lyanna being in love with Rhaegar?) The logical conclusion is that Robert, even if he doesn't kill the kid himself, is not going to raise a finger to prevent his death.

Some people claim he would have spared and protected the child for the sake of Lyanna's memory. This seems to me to be a fairly substantial misreading of Robert's character. But even if it were true... the Lannisters would off the kid in an instant. Not blatantly, but in an 'accident' perhaps. He was too much of a threat for Tywin to tolerate his existence. (And maybe even for Jon Arryn to do so. That old man was no fool...)

And Robert, remember, subsequently ignored the murder of two of his children by Cersei, so if Ned doubted his willingness to protect the child he would be right to do so.

No, Ned lying to protect the child is one of the bits of the theory that flows best, IMO.

[JohnSnow]

Raven...

Your posts are usually some of the most stable, well founded response on this page. Just wanted you to know that I look forward to reading you comments.

How many times have you read these books?

I think only a fool would argue against Roberts hatred for anything Targaryean. It was only on his deathbed that he saw the fault in what Ned had tried to dissuade.

Do you think his hatred comes from his knowledge that Lyanna truly did love Rheagar and he chose to see her as victim?

snow