Jon Snow -- Beware of Spoilers

[the_faery_queen]

glad its not just me! its insane tho, i also got the best marks for my literature study essays at uni, and yet i miss EVERYTHING in fantasy books. i guess its because i am reading them for pleasure, not to study, so i tend to miss stuff and just believe that what is going on is what they say.

[JohnSnow]

I still think that all of the "raise Jon to take the Black" theories only make sense in the case of Jon being a threat when he gets older due to his heritage. If he is the product of a Rheagar rape, or Lyanna whoring it up I don't see Ned being that patient. The Starks are a cold hearted people who don't take crap from anyone.

I still think Snow goes on to something fairly important. I still like the idea of him hooking up with Danearys and them nuking every one in the seven kingdoms. Now that would be a song of ice and fire!

the_faery_queen - I am reading through the books again now that I read what is said here, becuase I had just read for pleasure to start off. Now it is becoming an addiction!

Boaz - couple things about your post(s)
As far as the Azor Ahai goes I think Tyrion makes the most interesting possibility
All of the Tullys are freakin nuts
There are way to many dreams/prophesies/ etc. to all be true and relevant
You crack me up with whole "is anyone's parentage truly known" paragraph! After 10 minutes on the board I had to call home and double check that my parents where on the up and up with me!

[Boaz]

JS, did not mean for you to take it that seriously.

[Theorycraft]

For me, the clearest indicator that Jon is someone extremely important comes from the Eddard sequence in A Game of Thrones after his leg has been broken. He is remembering when he had gone up to the Tower to face the last 3 members of the Kingsguard.

Has anyone discussed before why these 3 knights were up at this isolated tower when they should have been guarding their King. They are the best of the guard, in fact Jaime Lannister would probably have been unable to kill Aerys if they had been present. At the end of the battle, only Howland Reed and Eddard survive. Eddard buries these men and tears down the tower they were guarding.

Now what kind of important mission would have called away the 3 best members of the Kingsguard in the hour when the King needed them most? "We swore a vow" explained old Gerold Hightower... A vow to whom to do what? And why is this scene linked inextricably in Stark's mind to Lyanna's "promise me"?

I'll argue that these members of the Kingsguard were there on Rhaegar's behest, protecting someone precious to him, the most precious thing to him, since he could not protect it himself. I think these things were his son and his lover. Nothing else seems remotely important enough to command these members of the Kingsguard, who would have been protecting his own life in battle.

Further, how does Lyanna die? We hear repeatedly of her blood, the room with blood in it, the roses. Is it possible this blood is hers, from childbirth, not from violence? As far as I can remember, no one ever tells exactly how Lyanna died, but if anyone can remember differently please remind me. I think Jon's age fits with this event chronologically.

I think the nail in the coffin to support this argument, for me, is the tale that Jojen and Meera tell to Bran as they are leading him North in A Storm of Swords. Remember, that Howland Reed is the only surviving person who knows exactly what happened at the Tower, and has thus far made no appearance in any kind of social setting, suggesting he disappeared after the event, perhaps at Eddard's behest. Bran wants the story to end "And the mystery knight should win the tourney, , defeating every challenger, and name the wolf maid the queen of love and beauty." Meera responds "She was, but that's a sadder story." Throughout, Jojen keeps prompting Bran, "are you sure your father never told you this story?"

I believe this is the same event that we later hear another account of, told historically, where Rhaegar named Lyanna the Queen of Love and Beauty, and that he fell in love with her there. Of all the men in this series, the only two who Eddard really holds up as honoralbe are Howland Reed and Rhaegar Targaryen.

Anyway, those are my thoughts, let me know what you think.

[asdar]

I admit the facts are there. I've read them before, and I wouldn't blame GRRM for keeping the whole thing a secret.

I think you're mistaking telling Catelyn with telling the world, but that doesn't change the signs that point in that direction. I'm not arguing the signs but rather the logic in Ned not telling Cat.

The one area that her and Ned argue and he kept the secret for 14 years?

If it's true that he did and Jon is from L+R then that supports my hatred for Cat a bit. If Ned wouldn't trust his own wife with whom he had 4 children what does that say for her character.

On a similar topic, it's been said the name of Ned's girl was Wylla (sp), at least if I'm not mistaken. Does the Wylla we know from the story know the truth or is it just a common name they picked for storytelling purposes.

[ras'matroi]

But what about the story Ned (the lord of starfall riding with the kings men) told Arya. All this about Jon being his milkbrother and Jon's mother being a serving girl.
There is no reason why he should lie to Arya...

[asdar]

Exactly ra'matroi, that's Wylla in the story, she was the serving girl and no reason that we know of for the young man to lie.

I guess it's entirely possible that Ned convinced them to tell the tale. Jon could still be his milk brother but brought directly from Lyanna's death bed by Ned. Wylla would know for sure and I've never heard that bar maids were very tight lipped, but it could be that way.

These are the things that keep me from buying the whole thing just yet. The few counter facts and the counter intuitive move by Ned, if the story is true, in not at least keeping Cat up to date.

I also can't bring myself to think that Ned, who was all good, could condemn his dead, but still revered, sisters son to the wall. I'd find it easier to believe he'd send his own pure sons to the wall.

[Raven]

Wylla was not a bar maid... where did you get that idea?

And as far as the Starks are concerned, the Wall is not something you are 'condemned' to but a noble calling. If Ned had no problem with his brother serving on the Wall, why would he balk at Lyanna's son doing so also?

[Boaz]

Regarding Wylla (sp?): Robert makes some reference to a time when he and Ned supposedly went wenching in their youth; Robert remembers her name was Wylla, Willa, Millie, or something like that. Perhaps it was in Dorne at the conclusion of the war. In Robert's mind they were wenching... He was probably drunk as a skunk... We know of Robert's affinity for bar maids... Soooooo, it would have been easy enough for Ned to lie to Robert about a roll in the hay with some local girl named Wylla... and when Wylla shows up later with a babe at the breast, Ned is proven to be the father of the child, no further questions.

Theorycraft, this has been discussed on this website and others.

Now the questions are: Did Ned really go wenching or is Wylla a participant in the cover up of Jon's parentage?

If Ned + Wylla = Jon, fine, Jon is the bastard son of Ned Stark as we've been told all along.

If Ned + some other local girl = Jon, then why involve Wylla and not the real birth mother?

If some guy +Wylla = Jon, why on earth would Ned get involved?

If Jon is the son of someone dear to Ned, then Ned might need to lie and create a cover story for Jon. Lyanna, Howland, Ned's men, and perhaps Robert were the only people that we know of whom Ned loved and were down in Dorne near/at/after the end of the war. If it was Howland's bastard, Howland could have done as he pleased with him. If it was Robert's bastard, why did Ned favor him above all the other bastards that Ned met in his life? If Jon is the bastard of one of Ned's men, giving him a job would be more than enough... why adopt him as a bastard son and cause friction with his wife?

Imo, Lyanna is the only one that makes sense. First, Jon looks like a Stark, not a Reed, not a Baratheon, nor a Dornishman. Second, Ned never remembers anyone else extracting a promise from him, ie Howland saying, "Promise me, Ned. Take my bastard son away so he won't grow up a frog eater."

Third, Ned was always about fulfilling his duty... in this he was like a Tully. Ned dutifully fostered with Jon Arryn at the Eyrie. Ned dutifully followed Robert in the rebellion and did not press any claim to the Iron Throne. Ned dutifully wedded and bedded Brandon's bride after Brandon's murder. Ned dutifully did not slay Jaime Lannister, Gregor Clegane, Amory Lorch, nor Tywin Lannister because of Robert's commands. Ned dutifully took up the lordship of the North and the position of Warden. Ned dutifully waged war on Balon Greyjoy and took Theon as hostage. Ned dutifully executed traitors, renegades, and turncloaks with his own hands. Ned dutifully accepted the postion of Hand.

I'm not saying Ned was an automaton. His conscience guided him in matters duty, love, honor, family, politics, and war. But with his beloved sister (I get the feeling that Lyanna was the one that held Rickard, Brandon, Ned, and Benjen together) on her deathbed, would Ned consider her last wishes of paramount importance. Would he have had the courage to refuse her? He certainly did not have the courage to refuse Robert on his deathbed. He let both of them die in peace, rather than cause them further anguish. In both cases, he took the burden of facing the truth and bearing the heavy burden upon himself.

If Robert + Lyanna = Jon, why did Robert not take the only piece of Lyanna he had left to King's Landing? If Ned and Jon Arryn talked Robert out of this, why does Robert not wish back fondly on Lyanna's son when he talks of how much he dislikes his own sons?

If Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon, then we have another possible head for the dragon, we have a reason for Ned's use of Wylla, we have reason for Ned's deception towards his wife, and we have reason for Ned letting Jon go to the Wall. Ned knew the Wall and it's brotherhood well. He knew Maester Aemon served there.

I can picture Ned thinking that the last Targaryen bastard could serve honorably defending his old kingdom. Declaring Jon's true parentage to Jon, could only bleed the realm and end in the death of Jon (Ned's foster son) or in the death of Robert (Ned's childhood best friend). I see Ned think that letting Jon believe he's a half-Stark is alright... it is the truth, if not the whole truth.

[asdar]

I was just going by memory for my post. I'll take what you said as proof that Wylla wasn't a barmaid. It stuck in my mind that she was for some reason but I don't mean to pass off my memory as proof.

The wall may well be considered a noble calling but Ned's reluctance to send the boy there mixed with every other single opinion in the book doesn't make it seem appealing to me.

I don't really like to argue things, please take everything said by other people as fact and my own threads as opinion. It won't bother me at all.

I see the signs of R+L=J, I just think that there are some open statements that say Ned+Wylla=Jon and a lot of what I consider to be common sense reasoning against R+L=J.

Jon looks like Ned, and while he could look like a stark following Lyanna, I think it's telling that he and Arya look alike, both sharing Neds looks apparently. Cousins often look alike but not as often as siblings.

There's coroboration that Ned's and Wylla's baby was a milk brother and a few other references that aren't any where near conclussive but point to the given story being true.

If they're not true and Jon is R+L=Jon I'm a happy guy. I think it's possible and would be a good twist on the storyline. I don't mind being wrong at all.

[Raven]

Boaz: I read that passage slightly differently. Ned says 'we are no longer the boys we were' and Robert replies that 'you never were the boy you were', implying that Ned never did go wenching. He then says 'but there was that one girl... your bastard's mother' meaning Wylla. There's no implication there that Robert has direct knowledge of a liaison between Wylla and Ned, and indeed the timelines make it difficult to see how he could have done. Robert and Ned spent a lot of the war in different places.

IOW, it's unlikely Robert ever met Wylla.

IIRC, there is some indication Wylla was a maid in service at Starfall, certainly after the war. The most likely thing is that she was the same before it. This links her to Ned through Ashara. And conveniently, to Rhaegar and Lyanna too. There is a passage where Ned recalls how 'they' found him with Lyanna's body. This indicates someone else other than Howland was there... and if Lyanna was known to be ill, a wetnurse would be a sensible provision.

[Boaz]

Originally Posted by asdar

I don't mind being wrong at all.

I don't mind either.

Raven, I agree that Robert's meaning was that Ned never had any fun, except the one time in Robert's memory. But his memory on this is hazy, like he only knows what Ned told him about this supposed amorous encounter. And btw, what does IOW mean? I often wonder... In old Westeros... Instead of weeping... Intended only with...

Martin has not nailed this down for us... and he probably won't 'til the next to last book. He knows the way it really is, but he's gonna leave us guessing.

I think the theory that Rhaegar and Lyanna are Jon's parents is most likely, imo... but this is only 'cause Raven and others have not given solid theories to the contrary. The minute they do, I'll change my opinion.

Edit: In other words! I got it! I think... I hope. I hope. I hope, I hope, I hope.

[zerohero]

Im glad to see nobody was mad at me starting another thread about this. I personaly believe that Jon is not Neds son. I cant really argue it and I dont have any evidence to support it, its just a feeling Ive had since the first book. From reading the previous post on Jon and everything you guys have posted in this thread, it seems GRRM is definately hinting at something here. I thought it was probly my own wishfull thinking until I posted here and found that almost everyone thinks the same way. If it turns out that Jon is just Neds son, then its going to be a big let down.

On a seperate note, who is everyones favorite character? Mine is Tyrion followed by Jon.

[Niolani]

I like Tyrion too, he along with jon, Arya and Brienne are my favorites.

[asdar]

Mine are Arya, Sansa and Sam.