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Old 13th September 2011, 02:07 AM   #256 (permalink)
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Re: Jon Snow

Assuming Jon is the son of R&L. What does anyone think Cersei would do or how she would react to finding this out?...We know she wanted (and maybe loved) Rhaegar and dislikes (and maybe hates) Lyanna, so I thought that would be cool to speculate on how she would take that knowledge.
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Old 13th September 2011, 04:36 AM   #257 (permalink)
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Re: Jon Snow

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I signed up on these forums for the sole purpose of telling you how great I think this theory is. Just magical (no pun intended), and right up GRRM's alley. Great stuff.
Welcome Linkster!

Thanks for the appreciation! I am rather proud of it myself!

Here's hoping you will hang out with us awhile!
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Old 13th September 2011, 04:40 AM   #258 (permalink)
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Re: Jon Snow

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Welcome to our little corner of Westeros

Needle did an amazing job with that
Indeed she did. Welcome LinksterAC!
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Old 13th September 2011, 01:26 PM   #259 (permalink)
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Re: Jon Snow

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Indeed she did. Welcome LinksterAC!
Thank you. You guys are very warm and welcoming.

I'm used to sports forums where everyone's trying to chew off your head.

Hope to be a part of some great GRRM discussions.
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Old 13th September 2011, 02:50 PM   #260 (permalink)
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Re: Jon Snow

Welcome, LinksterAC.

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Originally Posted by 3EyedCrowsEye View Post
Assuming Jon is the son of R&L. What does anyone think Cersei would do or how she would react to finding this out?...We know she wanted (and maybe loved) Rhaegar and dislikes (and maybe hates) Lyanna, so I thought that would be cool to speculate on how she would take that knowledge.

Welcome, 3EyedCrowsEye. Interesting thought. It can be said that, at one time, Cersei loved Rhaeegar. It can also be said that, at one time, she even loved Robert. Neither man loved her. They had more interest in Lyanna Stark, and divided Westeros into two halves over her.

I'd say Cersei would have ample reason to hate Jon. But even now, he's not beneath her notice. She wants Jon dead. The only difference this knowledge might make, is that she will probably want Jon dead a little more.
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Old 13th September 2011, 06:37 PM   #261 (permalink)
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Re: Jon Snow

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Thank you. You guys are very warm and welcoming.

I'm used to sports forums where everyone's trying to chew off your head.

Hope to be a part of some great GRRM discussions.
I can totally relate to the sports forum thing I used to post on a very large pro basketball (team specific forum) and had to stop because i couldn't stand how horrible everyone was to each other. The thing i love about this board is the respect and civility everyone's shows, not to mention the amazingly smart and knowledgeable posters we have here

Looking forward to seeing you post
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Old 13th September 2011, 07:40 PM   #262 (permalink)
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Re: Jon Snow

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Originally Posted by 3EyedCrowsEye View Post
Assuming Jon is the son of R&L. What does anyone think Cersei would do or how she would react to finding this out?...We know she wanted (and maybe loved) Rhaegar and dislikes (and maybe hates) Lyanna, so I thought that would be cool to speculate on how she would take that knowledge.
Interesting throught and welcome. But I'm sorry, after ADWD, one can no longer safely assume this.
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Old 13th September 2011, 08:15 PM   #263 (permalink)
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Re: Jon Snow

If I'm correct that you're referring to "assuming Jon is the son of R&L" as the part that "one can no longer safely assume"....how so? What we learned in ADWD is that Ned had an affair with Ashara Dayne and that Jon is definitely certainly not the product, because Ashara gave birth to a stillborn girl around the time of Jon's birth and then promptly killed herself. Some brief mention of the possibility of a fisherman's daughter was made, but the timeline doesn't work, and one would have to assume that (since his affair with Ashara was confirmed) Ned spent half of Robert's Rebellion planting bastards in women's wombs even while married to Catelyn. And that doesn't match with Ned's character. A single affair most of us could believe, but it's too much to think that Ned was just another Robert.

So how is it that we can no longer safely assume (or even strongly believe it's possible) that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna?
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Old 13th September 2011, 08:36 PM   #264 (permalink)
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Re: Jon Snow

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If I'm correct that you're referring to "assuming Jon is the son of R&L" as the part that "one can no longer safely assume"....how so? What we learned in ADWD is that Ned had an affair with Ashara Dayne and that Jon is definitely certainly not the product, because Ashara gave birth to a stillborn girl around the time of Jon's birth and then promptly killed herself. Some brief mention of the possibility of a fisherman's daughter was made, but the timeline doesn't work, and one would have to assume that (since his affair with Ashara was confirmed) Ned spent half of Robert's Rebellion planting bastards in women's wombs even while married to Catelyn. And that doesn't match with Ned's character. A single affair most of us could believe, but it's too much to think that Ned was just another Robert.

So how is it that we can no longer safely assume (or even strongly believe it's possible) that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna?
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If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?
We can't assume that it was ned that Selmy was referring to. It could have been Brandon, no?
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Old 13th September 2011, 08:58 PM   #265 (permalink)
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Re: Jon Snow

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We can't assume that it was ned that Selmy was referring to. It could have been Brandon, no?
I've been thinking that it was Brandon and that it was deliberate misdirection on GRRM's part
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Old 13th September 2011, 09:00 PM   #266 (permalink)
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Re: Jon Snow

Hmmm....I thought Brandon was already dead by then. Maybe my timelines are mixed up. But if he was referring to Brandon, then Ashara Dayne killed herself before she would've had a chance to have a fling with Ned....and how would anyone have come to the conclusion that they ever were an item?

I do think Ned had an affair. Just the question is with whom. I don't buy the fisherman's daughter. How did he have time to conceive, go off fighting, come back 9 months later and find here "wherever" she ended up, then take the kid with him back to Winterfell? Just doesn't fit.
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Old 13th September 2011, 09:05 PM   #267 (permalink)
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Re: Jon Snow

Let me ask you this....

A friend of mine thinks the woman that Bran saw praying to the heart tree for her child to "avenge her" is Lyanna, and the reason she wants the baby to avenge her is because she was raped....by Rhaegar. I think The Imp (or perhaps someone else) suggested the woman praying meant that Lyanna was raped by Aerys, not Rhaegar.

I dunno....I have problems with both theories, but can't completely discount either.

What do you guys think?
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Old 14th September 2011, 05:08 PM   #268 (permalink)
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Re: Jon Snow

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Welcome Linkster!

Thanks for the appreciation! I am rather proud of it myself!

Here's hoping you will hang out with us awhile!
First of all, I'd like to beg everyone's forgiveness for the misspelling of any character's name. I've consumed this brilliant epic through audiobook (I drive a lot), so I haven't been exposed to the actual text.

As your theory settles in mind, it's becoming more and more likely that Jon's death will turn out to be similar to what you propose in your theory. The internal workings of the story provide no real red flag to negate your ideas, and plenty of circumstantial evidence to support them.

Stepping outside of that, there is a lot thematically and stylistically that seems to support it cozily as well. We all know about GRRM's penchant for misdirection, and it strikes me that the entire "feel" of Jon's death was reminiscent to that of the Red Wedding. I think GRRM used Robb's death to set up Jon's in the reader's mind. It's brilliant, really. They're both Stark children, with admirable character, that the reader feels emotionally bonded to, who have an ever-growing capability for leadership that make us believe in them as eventual heroes of the tale.

Consider Robb. We are invested in him, in his honesty, his valor, his romance (with Jayne), his surprising tactical ability, and his string of successes over opponents who should cow him (everyone from the GreatJon to Jamie and Tywin Lannister). Jon develops similarly as a character, but with even more promise. From steward, to faux-turncloak, to wildling, to prisoner, to Lord Commander, he displays immense courage, a romantic sentiment, and even more precociousness than his half-brother/cousin.

So, GRRM leverages the finality of Robb's death to magnify the impact of Jon's. We all were forced to confront it when we read those last chapters of ADWD. We can't use the "free pass" that every other writer gives us about how the hero never dies, when the author has proven that he'll kill him.

Instead, we're forced to try to reason it out, which is something I think GRRM also wants from his readers: real emotional and intellectual engagement. I think it's why he provided us with the Varymyr prologue to open the book, whose purpose in ADWD I couldn't really justify or explain until I read Needle's theory. It's there, along with a string of interconnected clues (including Arya's sudden moment as a cat), to lend credence to what will be the explanation of Jon's death in the next book.

Really, I've gotta say it again, nice work Needle.
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Old 14th September 2011, 06:25 PM   #269 (permalink)
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Re: Jon Snow

Quote:
Originally Posted by LinksterAC View Post
First of all, I'd like to beg everyone's forgiveness for the misspelling of any character's name. I've consumed this brilliant epic through audiobook (I drive a lot), so I haven't been exposed to the actual text.

As your theory settles in mind, it's becoming more and more likely that Jon's death will turn out to be similar to what you propose in your theory. The internal workings of the story provide no real red flag to negate your ideas, and plenty of circumstantial evidence to support them.

Stepping outside of that, there is a lot thematically and stylistically that seems to support it cozily as well. We all know about GRRM's penchant for misdirection, and it strikes me that the entire "feel" of Jon's death was reminiscent to that of the Red Wedding. I think GRRM used Robb's death to set up Jon's in the reader's mind. It's brilliant, really. They're both Stark children, with admirable character, that the reader feels emotionally bonded to, who have an ever-growing capability for leadership that make us believe in them as eventual heroes of the tale.

Consider Robb. We are invested in him, in his honesty, his valor, his romance (with Jayne), his surprising tactical ability, and his string of successes over opponents who should cow him (everyone from the GreatJon to Jamie and Tywin Lannister). Jon develops similarly as a character, but with even more promise. From steward, to faux-turncloak, to wildling, to prisoner, to Lord Commander, he displays immense courage, a romantic sentiment, and even more precociousness than his half-brother/cousin.

So, GRRM leverages the finality of Robb's death to magnify the impact of Jon's. We all were forced to confront it when we read those last chapters of ADWD. We can't use the "free pass" that every other writer gives us about how the hero never dies, when the author has proven that he'll kill him.

Instead, we're forced to try to reason it out, which is something I think GRRM also wants from his readers: real emotional and intellectual engagement. I think it's why he provided us with the Varymyr prologue to open the book, whose purpose in ADWD I couldn't really justify or explain until I read Needle's theory. It's there, along with a string of interconnected clues (including Arya's sudden moment as a cat), to lend credence to what will be the explanation of Jon's death in the next book.

Really, I've gotta say it again, nice work Needle.
Great post

Let me add that I also read the audio books, and it took me ages to get most of the names correctly. reading threads here, and referring to online resources (The Tower of the Hand, A Wiki of Ice and Fire, etc) also helped a lot
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Old 15th September 2011, 01:25 AM   #270 (permalink)
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Re: Jon Snow

The audio book readers do have 1 advantage though, you at least know how to pronounce names! Some of my favorite characters from years past will always have the wrong name in my head, I would hear the audio or it would be made for film and I am like that's not her name!
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