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Old 8th September 2011, 08:46 PM   #241 (permalink)
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Re: Jon Snow

I totally disagree that it's "only in Bran's" story. We've certainly had the most detailed account from Bran's, but warging is very well established as an advanced capability in all of the Stark kids except Sansa (about whom there's been no discussion of this capacity) and Robb (for whom it was only vaguely hinted). Rikkon was just a toddler when we last saw him and yet freely warging in his dreams. Arya floats from one body to another almost at will at this stage (remember her warging into the cat while she was still blind?). Jon is well established as a warg and we see his capability grow during ADWD. With that letter in hand and all that he believes to be on the line (his only remaining family at the mercy of Monster Bolton and the threat to the peace of the realm with the supposed murder of Stannis and the capture of Mance).....I have no trouble at all believing that Jon could be convinced in a short time by Mel to attempt warging into a re-animated corpse, even if he'd never done anything of the sort. He's obviously comfortable warging into a direwolf (almost to the point he prefers it), and if he saw this as his only way out....I think it's perfectly believable within the rules of GRRMs world.
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Old 8th September 2011, 09:02 PM   #242 (permalink)
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Re: Jon Snow

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I totally disagree that it's "only in Bran's" story. We've certainly had the most detailed account from Bran's, but warging is very well established as an advanced capability in all of the Stark kids except Sansa (about whom there's been no discussion of this capacity) and Robb (for whom it was only vaguely hinted). Rikkon was just a toddler when we last saw him and yet freely warging in his dreams. Arya floats from one body to another almost at will at this stage (remember her warging into the cat while she was still blind?). Jon is well established as a warg and we see his capability grow during ADWD. With that letter in hand and all that he believes to be on the line (his only remaining family at the mercy of Monster Bolton and the threat to the peace of the realm with the supposed murder of Stannis and the capture of Mance).....I have no trouble at all believing that Jon could be convinced in a short time by Mel to attempt warging into a re-animated corpse, even if he'd never done anything of the sort. He's obviously comfortable warging into a direwolf (almost to the point he prefers it), and if he saw this as his only way out....I think it's perfectly believable within the rules of GRRMs world.
Just so. The only Stark we can have doubts about right now is Sansa, who, as far as we know, has had no wolf dreams. This leads me to wonder what would happen if one of the remaining children died and their wolf remained. Rickon, for instance. Could Summer then be hers?
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Old 8th September 2011, 09:28 PM   #243 (permalink)
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Re: Jon Snow

In defense of Needle's theory, I think GRRM has dropped sufficient hints for it to be totally plausible.

Hint #1 - Arya. There was nothing to suggest that she had been warging into cats for very long, when she had become good enough at it, when blind, to warg into a cat, strike the kindly old man, and then warg back out in a matter of moments. Remember how Varamyr specifically commented that skinchanngers should leave cats alone?

Hint #2. - In the prologue Varamyr makes a big deal about being such a strong skinchanger, in fact, about being stronger than all the other skin changers in his little community of skinchangers. But when he considers Jon Snow in that chapter, he neither admits to having a stronger or weaker gift than Jon does. This leads me to believe that Jon probably has the stronger gift. Where Varamry might struggle to take over a human body, Jon might do it with relative ease.

Lastly, we know that GRRM uses POV characters to hide secrets from the reader in very huge plot points. The entire "Promise me Ned" is Ned hiding information from the reader. It would have been very easy for GRRM to get to the heart of that little line way back in A Game of Thrones, but after five books, we still have no definite answer as to what that meant.

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Old 8th September 2011, 11:02 PM   #244 (permalink)
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Re: Jon Snow

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I totally disagree that it's "only in Bran's" story. We've certainly had the most detailed account from Bran's, but warging is very well established as an advanced capability in all of the Stark kids except Sansa (about whom there's been no discussion of this capacity) and Robb (for whom it was only vaguely hinted). Jon is well established as a warg and we see his capability grow during ADWD.
I am not saying the warging ability is only within Bran, nor am I saying that Jon would never be able to do this, I in fact agree that he could do something like warg into another human. I am saying that Bran is the only one that has explored the ability to this degree.

The way I am looking at it is, take 3 children, all with the capacity to speak. Now have one raised by wolves, one by raised by uneducated peasants, and one raised in a royal house. The one raised by wolves will only make guttural sounds mimicking his wolf family. The one raised by peasants will be able to communicate but only on the most basic of levels, while the one raised in a royal house will have a command of language and be completely comfortable communicating in it. To me it seems to be the same principle as any skill, no one is born a great writer, it takes practice. While he has the natural ability, short of him realizing he can warg into another human by doing it accidentally while in a life or death situation, I think its at least questionable for him to skip the entire learning process.

Also to my knowledge, he has never warged into Ghost while consciously awake, only in dreams, and did very little warging in ADWD, short of experiencing sensations that Ghost was having (these points may be wholly inaccurate as I'm just working from memory on this).

As I was responding to Ursa, I had started to write "I can see Jon consulting with Mel after the raven comes within those two hours...", and then asked myself, well if he could have gone to her, couldn't she have had the bodies waiting for him? It does not seem as farfetched as I had originally thought it to be, and does work quite nicely.
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Old 9th September 2011, 02:10 AM   #245 (permalink)
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Re: Jon Snow

The above analogy makes perfect sense for real world application. However, none of the Stark children, Bran included, had to be taught to warg. Bran never had to be taught to enter Hodor, and correct me if I'm wrong here, but the first time he did it was not during a life and death experience. I believe Bran first did it when Hodor panicked during a lightning storm.

The Stark children seem to do this almost naturally. Although there is no hint that Jon has ever slipped into another person's body before, I don't think it's a stretch to say that he could do it by sheer accident.
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Old 9th September 2011, 06:21 AM   #246 (permalink)
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Re: Jon Snow

I've never noticed royalty to have better linguistic skills than those of peasant stock, but I get your point.

If GRRM want to surprise us by Jon warging into a dead body, then, it shall be so. We can blame it on genetics or Mel's instruction.
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Old 9th September 2011, 06:50 AM   #247 (permalink)
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Re: Jon Snow

One more point about the 2 bodies that Jon was "saving" so that he could learn more about them. I never entirely bought that reason, and he very well may have been conducting experiments that were actually him perfecting his warging into people skills without anyone knowing. Dead men don't talk, after all.
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Old 9th September 2011, 08:04 AM   #248 (permalink)
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Re: Jon Snow

I thought these passages below would be of interest.

Quote:
The red priestess shuddered. Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking. The fire was inside her, an agony, an ecstasy, filling her, searing her, transforming her. Shimmers of heat traced patterns on her skin, insistent as a lover’s hand. Strange voices called to her from days long past. “Melony,” she heard a woman cry. A man’s voice called, “Lot Seven.” She was weeping, and her tears were were flame. And still she drank it in.
Quote:
But the skulls were here as well, the skulls were all around him. Melisandre had seen his danger before, had tried to warn the boy of it. Enemies all around him, daggers in the dark. He would not listen.
Quote:
“The bones help,” said Melisandre. “The bones remember. The strongest glamors are built of such things. A dead man’s boots, a hank of hair, a bag of fingerbones. With whispered words and prayer, a man’s shadow can be drawn forth from such and draped about another like a cloak. The wearer’s essence does not change, only his seeming.”
From the first quote, I think we can be certain that Melisandre has done something to join by the end of his last chapter in Dance. The question is, what has she done?

The second quote is possibly linked very closely with the third quote, and I think the two of them together favor Needle's theory quite nicely. In the second quote, Melisandre seems to think that the skulls she sees around Jon signify some sort of danger, but we know she does not always read the fires 100% accurately.

The last quote may tell us exactly what those skulls around Jon actually mean.
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Old 9th September 2011, 08:13 PM   #249 (permalink)
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Re: Jon Snow

But,.

When was there a plausible time for all this warging and glamoring to happen? Before or after the letter? Are you suggesting he was warged into one of the dead men all day? Maybe..

Also, maybe that fact that he was unable to handle longclaw was a clue too. Either it wasn't even there or, if it was needed for the glamor, maybe it was just to hard for him to do while injured in a dead man..
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Old 9th September 2011, 08:19 PM   #250 (permalink)
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Re: Jon Snow

Does anyone think longlclaw is lightbringer and that (if Jon is to be one of the three heads of the dragon - whether you believe R+L=J or not) that the prince that was promised is actually 3 princes(ses) - Dany, Jon + ANother (Aegon or Stannis perhaps).
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Old 10th September 2011, 03:52 AM   #251 (permalink)
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Re: Jon Snow

First let me say, I must have gotten something right, it feels good to have others defend my theory! I guess I may not be crazy after all!
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This leads me to wonder what would happen if one of the remaining children died and their wolf remained. Rickon, for instance. Could Summer then be hers?
I never considered this. I'd say it's definitely possible but probably unlikely. All the wargs animals we have seen have a personal connection to there "person", especially the direwolves. Yet on the other hand didn't Varamyr have animals that had belonged to others?

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In defense of Needle's theory, I think GRRM has dropped sufficient hints for it to be totally plausible.

Hint #1 - Arya. There was nothing to suggest that she had been warging into cats for very long, when she had become good enough at it, when blind, to warg into a cat, strike the kindly old man, and then warg back out in a matter of moments. Remember how Varamyr specifically commented that skinchanngers should leave cats alone?

Lastly, we know that GRRM uses POV characters to hide secrets from the reader in very huge plot points. The entire "Promise me Ned" is Ned hiding information from the reader. It would have been very easy for GRRM to get to the heart of that little line way back in A Game of Thrones, but after five books, we still have no definite answer as to what that meant.
Arya did indeed slide into the cat without trying or even thinking about it, she just did it.

I agree too that GRRM uses the POV view to trick us at times! We expect to hear everything because we are after all, in their mind but that is not always the case.
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Originally Posted by mtzGr View Post

As I was responding to Ursa, I had started to write "I can see Jon consulting with Mel after the raven comes within those two hours...", and then asked myself, well if he could have gone to her, couldn't she have had the bodies waiting for him? It does not seem as farfetched as I had originally thought it to be, and does work quite nicely.
When this idea first got into my head, I was like "no way" but the more I thought about it the truer it felt! It fits pretty perfectly and would be a very GRRM thing to do to us! i am now utterly convinced!
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The above analogy makes perfect sense for real world application. However, none of the Stark children, Bran included, had to be taught to warg. Bran never had to be taught to enter Hodor, and correct me if I'm wrong here, but the first time he did it was not during a life and death experience. I believe Bran first did it when Hodor panicked during a lightning storm.

The Stark children seem to do this almost naturally. Although there is no hint that Jon has ever slipped into another person's body before, I don't think it's a stretch to say that he could do it by sheer accident.
Bran did indeed just jump into Hodor completely by accident he reached out to him to calm him down during the storm and poof he was in him. And as I said earlier Arya did it too with the cat. Jon has way more knowledge of what is possible than either of them did, so I believe he could, would and did do it!
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One more point about the 2 bodies that Jon was "saving" so that he could learn more about them. I never entirely bought that reason, and he very well may have been conducting experiments that were actually him perfecting his warging into people skills without anyone knowing. Dead men don't talk, after all.
Just so!!
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But,.

When was there a plausible time for all this warging and glamoring to happen? Before or after the letter? Are you suggesting he was warged into one of the dead men all day? Maybe..

Also, maybe that fact that he was unable to handle longclaw was a clue too. Either it wasn't even there or, if it was needed for the glamor, maybe it was just to hard for him to do while injured in a dead man..
That he was there all day is possible but personally (even if it was maybe discussed before) I don't think it was actually done until after he got the letter, that was the last straw, so to speak!
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Does anyone think longlclaw is lightbringer and that (if Jon is to be one of the three heads of the dragon - whether you believe R+L=J or not) that the prince that was promised is actually 3 princes(ses) - Dany, Jon + ANother (Aegon or Stannis perhaps).
Longclaw could become Lightbringer of course but I think, don't ask why I have no idea! no clue how he will get his hands on it! But I think Jon will come into possesion of one of the blades made from Ice! Lightbringer made from Ice, literally a Song of Ice and Fire!
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Old 10th September 2011, 10:05 AM   #252 (permalink)
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Re: Jon Snow

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Just so. The only Stark we can have doubts about right now is Sansa, who, as far as we know, has had no wolf dreams. This leads me to wonder what would happen if one of the remaining children died and their wolf remained. Rickon, for instance. Could Summer then be hers?
What if Nymeria got with puppy as they say and then one of her litter became Sansa's? Sansa would be like a born-again Stark. OR if Nymeria enters the Vale and Sansa wargs her and then Arya and Sansa share her and thus have a connection.

I also think there's a significance with the moon door and half the front door of the house of black and white being made of weirwood and having a face carved into both. Methinks this is significant. When Bran wanted to contact Jon he did it through the wolves and the faces on the weirwood trees. My thinking is that Sansa starts to warg into some sort of bird and flies up to the moon door, where all the starks make of contact through the faces on their weirwoods. Just a theory
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Old 10th September 2011, 09:38 PM   #253 (permalink)
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Re: Jon Snow

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Just so. The only Stark we can have doubts about right now is Sansa, who, as far as we know, has had no wolf dreams. This leads me to wonder what would happen if one of the remaining children died and their wolf remained. Rickon, for instance. Could Summer then be hers?
That obviously should have been Shaggy Dog, not Summer
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Old 12th September 2011, 10:45 PM   #254 (permalink)
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Re: Jon Snow

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Crackpot theory-Jon is not dead because Jon is not Jon update:
Will do my best here to put it all together.


Magic we know can and has been done: reanimation of the dead, glamour of one person to look like another, a warg ability to take over another.


Okay, Mel knows Jon is in great danger, would she just let him die and hope to bring him back, short answer no. As far as Jon knows, Arya is all that is left of his family (and his favorite besides), he cannot just let Ramsey have her. Mel tells Jon “Look to the sky for answers, when you get them come to me.” I believe he did just that after reading Ramsey’s letter. It is stated that he had a 2 hour meeting between reading and going to his “death” it did not take that long for Jon and Tourmand to get their plot together. Ghost and the raven know something is up (granted this is before Jon gets the letter) but if they could sense Jon was in danger they could sense what was about to happen, Ghost goes so far as to bite at Jon, and had he been allowed to go with Jon it would not have worked. So he remains locked up.

I had already figured Mel had glamoured someone to look like Jon, my sticking point was who? They would have to be willing, and would Jon allow someone he trusted, that was willing to do such a thing do it, probably not.

Now for the connecting pieces, I give credit here where credit is due: To Imp, for reminding us of those bodies locked in their cells that must be there for a reason, and to my son for saying “Doesn’t Rhallor give the power to raise the dead, what about those bodies?”

If Cat can be brought back after rotting in the water for days, a semi frozen body should be easy.

So this is what happened, Mel breathes life (a semblance of one anyway) into a convienent body, glamours it look like Jon, Jon goes into it long enough to make that stupid speech (after being convinced by Mel and Borug(the guy with the boar) that he can do this), body gets killed, Jon picks up Ghost, who is really freakin out cause Jon in a dead body really upsets him. Now I believe the wildlings may well go on to Winterfell, will Jon go with them or it was that only part of the plan to draw out the danger, I don’t know.

All of this allows Jon to rid himself of those standing in the way of what must be done, it also lets him keep his friends. I say this because he is of the North, in the North, followed by the North. If he is brought back by Mel, he becomes Un-Jon, someone the northerners would view as an other, even if he can go into Ghost while his body dies, they would still hold this view. To warg is acceptable even valued, as long it does not involve taking another person. A dead body, with the potential to be an other, would surely not count.



I rest my case and claim bragging rights when this all proves true! If it doesn’t we will just forget that I may have gone crazy!
I signed up on these forums for the sole purpose of telling you how great I think this theory is. Just magical (no pun intended), and right up GRRM's alley. Great stuff.
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Old 12th September 2011, 11:24 PM   #255 (permalink)
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Re: Jon Snow

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I signed up on these forums for the sole purpose of telling you how great I think this theory is. Just magical (no pun intended), and right up GRRM's alley. Great stuff.
Welcome to our little corner of Westeros

Needle did an amazing job with that
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