Jon Snow -- Beware of Spoilers

[Ursa major]

Yes: Welcome, Dragonstone.

Some of us might have been foolish enough to think that in R+L=J, we'd seen something so important that we had to post a thread about it.

(In my case, I was lucky enough to read some of the posts in this forum first and so didn't embarrass myself. Until now, that is.... )

[vanslyke]

anyone notice the link between my avatar and jon?

[deathstar]

.........lol

[DarrellR]

Originally Posted by dragonstone

Third. He is bastard born so comes after Aegon and Daenerys even if he is older than both.

What's that number you just used? 3? Like three dragons needing three riders? Heh, just saying *smiles*

Well, I think others said it but no one knows if Snow is even dead for him to be become undead. People have survived worse but who knows. A lot of emphasis (by Snow) was put on that the undead still have coherrent sense of who they are and the world around them even in their state. At least that was one of the things he wished to investigate with the two corpses.

But like someone else (Imp, I believe) stated for him to die would leave a severe hole in the plot. At the same time the idea that he is the child of Ned and Ashara (or some fisher daughter) would also be rather blah and do nothing to further along the plot as well. I'm sure if many read it they would go 'Really? Big freaking deal' Though even with all of us guessing R+L=J we'd still be like 'Things about to get hectic now!' So it would still have some effect. At this point I don't see how he can be anything but R+J because everything else would fall flat and be rather lackluster.

Now some may think he won't go that way because it is obvious but many of his ideas have been obvious. It's just the way he delivers it that grabs you. I saw the Red Wedding coming as I know some others did as well. It was rather blatant. But the delivery he utilized made it still make your mouth open and say 'Now that was something else.' Granted I didn't get that feeling with anything in this book (You all had to see the Snow attack coming since Mel predicted it for one) unfortunately but still enjoyed it. But for him to go a different route with Jon would lead to a brick wall.

The twist at this point is who fulfills the prophecy as the markings have shown for both Dany and Jon. I think someone said there hasn't been anything to show Jon is AA but someone already pointed it out earlier.

1. The knight with the star emblem covered in blood above Jon
2. Smoke from the stab wounds
3. Marsh crying

And of course there is Mel trying to learn more about the person she thought was AA in Stannis but everytime she did she got the image of Jon Snow to her frustration.

So if anything it seems Martin wants us trying to discern which is AA and who is not. I suspect they both will be. One of Ice and one of Fire but that is just a wild assumption that fits the title and the two battles Martin stated to be in the next book calling one a Battle of Ice and another a Battle of Fire.

[C Of K]

Graet post, DarrellR. A lot of good points in it, and while I don't disagree with most of them, I don't entirely agree, either.

Originally Posted by DarrellR

Well, I think others said it but no one knows if Snow is even dead for him to be become undead. People have survived worse but who knows. A lot of emphasis (by Snow) was put on that the undead still have coherrent sense of who they are and the world around them even in their state. At least that was one of the things he wished to investigate with the two corpses.

People have survived worse. I think this is probably true,
but at this point, we don't know how bad Jon got it. I could
just as easily say that people have died from a lot less.

But like someone else (Imp, I believe) stated for him to die would leave a severe hole in the plot. At the same time the idea that he is the child of Ned and Ashara (or some fisher daughter) would also be rather blah and do nothing to further along the plot as well. I'm sure if many read it they would go 'Really? Big freaking deal' Though even with all of us guessing R+L=J we'd still be like 'Things about to get hectic now!' So it would still have some effect. At this point I don't see how he can be anything but R+J because everything else would fall flat and be rather lackluster.

I don't believe Jon's death would necessarily leave a big plot hole in the story. It might, but it also might not. It all depends on how GRRM spins this yarn. It's entirely conceivable that he could kill Jon, and have it make perfect sense with everything that has happened so far. GRRM has proven himself capable of doing this time and again. I guess the mystery of Jon's mother hasn't been one of the main plot devices that has brought me back to the story time and again. (At one time, I was interested in this. But getting the clear, concrete, answer has been drawn out so long, I've actually lost interest.) I haven't been waiting raptly to find out the answer, so I can easily see Jon as the son of a fisherman's daughter. I can easily see him as Rhaegar's child. I can easily see him dying from his wounds. I think Jon is a good character, but no better than a lot of others. I believe, one way or another, we'll get the answers to all our questions about the different characters like Jon. But perhaps we've already gotten our answers about him.

[dragonstone]

It would be sooooo interesting if Jon became a wight but remained a POV character

[Needle]

I just had a thought, scary I know! New crackpot theory:

What if Jon is not dead because it was not Jon being stabbed?! I know that since it happens in his own POV and with thoughts of Ghost in his head it may seem unlikely BUT we know Mel has gotten good at the glamour thing, she knows Jon is in grave danger, knows he will need her help. Seems odd that she would take such a big chance that he could really end up dead. just don't think her plans for him include his being un-dead! It would complicate things for them both especially if many people see him die! Pretty sure Stannis for one, even though he has gotten a little weird, would not be willing to work with Un-Jon.

Just think about it (the more I think about it the better it sounds!)

She has done it before, maybe she is doing it again!

[The Imp]

Originally Posted by Needle

I just had a thought, scary I know! New crackpot theory:

What if Jon is not dead because it was not Jon being stabbed?! I know that since it happens in his own POV and with thoughts of Ghost in his head it may seem unlikely BUT we know Mel has gotten good at the glamour thing, she knows Jon is in grave danger, knows he will need her help. Seems odd that she would take such a big chance that he could really end up dead. just don't think her plans for him include his being un-dead! It would complicate things for them both especially if many people see him die! Pretty sure Stannis for one, even though he has gotten a little weird, would not be willing to work with Un-Jon.

Just think about it (the more I think about it the better it sounds!)

She has done it before, maybe she is doing it again!

I used the "not in his POV theory" to support my "Ned is alive" crackpot theory. I'd need some convincing about this, how exactly does the fact that his POV become negated?

[Needle]

Originally I felt that since the event happened in his own POV with us inside his head that it made my theory seem impossible, not so sure now. Looking more closely at his thoughts it may lend it credence. Have we ever had anyone die in their own POV? (not sure but can't think of anyone besides Kevan) It says he didn't feel anything after first blow (this could mean he retreated into Ghost but don't think so)

Second Ghost is locked up, he would certainly protect Jon, but he of course would know it is not Jon, so he would not act, causing suspicion. Before Jon goes to his "death, Ghost is semi crazy, pacing, he goes so far as to bare his teeth at "Jon". The raven too is freakin, screaming Snow, Snow, Snow!

Jon thinks, says to himself,"a raven in a storm she saw this coming" and remembers her saying when you have your answers come to me" Maybe he did just that.

Then he goes and does a very not Jon thing with his announcement. To draw out those who would do him harm?

Still putting this together, sorry this so disjointed, but it feels more true all the time.

[vanslyke]

I'm on the fence with this one. We may be reaching for answers here lol. I like the idea though for sure and I just re-read the chapter and there are a couple points that make sense for it.

[juleska]

Originally Posted by Needle

Originally I felt that since the event happened in his own POV with us inside his head that it made my theory seem impossible, not so sure now. Looking more closely at his thoughts it may lend it credence. Have we ever had anyone die in their own POV? (not sure but can't think of anyone besides Kevan) It says he didn't feel anything after first blow (this could mean he retreated into Ghost but don't think so)

Second Ghost is locked up, he would certainly protect Jon, but he of course would know it is not Jon, so he would not act, causing suspicion. Before Jon goes to his "death, Ghost is semi crazy, pacing, he goes so far as to bare his teeth at "Jon". The raven too is freakin, screaming Snow, Snow, Snow!

Jon thinks, says to himself,"a raven in a storm she saw this coming" and remembers her saying when you have your answers come to me" Maybe he did just that.

Then he goes and does a very not Jon thing with his announcement. To draw out those who would do him harm?

Still putting this together, sorry this so disjointed, but it feels more true all the time.

The Red Wedding was told from Catelyn's point of view if memory serves.

[The Imp]

Originally Posted by juleska

The Red Wedding was told from Catelyn's point of view if memory serves.

Correct

Needle, keep thinking about this. agood crackpot theory is like a fine wine.........

[Needle]

Crackpot theory-Jon is not dead because Jon is not Jon update:
Will do my best here to put it all together.


Magic we know can and has been done: reanimation of the dead, glamour of one person to look like another, a warg ability to take over another.


Okay, Mel knows Jon is in great danger, would she just let him die and hope to bring him back, short answer no. As far as Jon knows, Arya is all that is left of his family (and his favorite besides), he cannot just let Ramsey have her. Mel tells Jon “Look to the sky for answers, when you get them come to me.” I believe he did just that after reading Ramsey’s letter. It is stated that he had a 2 hour meeting between reading and going to his “death” it did not take that long for Jon and Tourmand to get their plot together. Ghost and the raven know something is up (granted this is before Jon gets the letter) but if they could sense Jon was in danger they could sense what was about to happen, Ghost goes so far as to bite at Jon, and had he been allowed to go with Jon it would not have worked. So he remains locked up.

I had already figured Mel had glamoured someone to look like Jon, my sticking point was who? They would have to be willing, and would Jon allow someone he trusted, that was willing to do such a thing do it, probably not.

Now for the connecting pieces, I give credit here where credit is due: To Imp, for reminding us of those bodies locked in their cells that must be there for a reason, and to my son for saying “Doesn’t Rhallor give the power to raise the dead, what about those bodies?”

If Cat can be brought back after rotting in the water for days, a semi frozen body should be easy.

So this is what happened, Mel breathes life (a semblance of one anyway) into a convienent body, glamours it look like Jon, Jon goes into it long enough to make that stupid speech (after being convinced by Mel and Borug(the guy with the boar) that he can do this), body gets killed, Jon picks up Ghost, who is really freakin out cause Jon in a dead body really upsets him. Now I believe the wildlings may well go on to Winterfell, will Jon go with them or it was that only part of the plan to draw out the danger, I don’t know.

All of this allows Jon to rid himself of those standing in the way of what must be done, it also lets him keep his friends. I say this because he is of the North, in the North, followed by the North. If he is brought back by Mel, he becomes Un-Jon, someone the northerners would view as an other, even if he can go into Ghost while his body dies, they would still hold this view. To warg is acceptable even valued, as long it does not involve taking another person. A dead body, with the potential to be an other, would surely not count.



I rest my case and claim bragging rights when this all proves true! If it doesn’t we will just forget that I may have gone crazy!

[Glaysher]

Originally Posted by Needle

I rest my case and claim bragging rights when this all proves true! If it doesn’t we will just forget that I may have gone crazy!

I'm routing for your theory. It would certainly be better than Jon doing a Fitz from the Farseer books.

[The Imp]

Originally Posted by Needle

Crackpot theory-Jon is not dead because Jon is not Jon update:
Will do my best here to put it all together.


Magic we know can and has been done: reanimation of the dead, glamour of one person to look like another, a warg ability to take over another.


Okay, Mel knows Jon is in great danger, would she just let him die and hope to bring him back, short answer no. As far as Jon knows, Arya is all that is left of his family (and his favorite besides), he cannot just let Ramsey have her. Mel tells Jon “Look to the sky for answers, when you get them come to me.” I believe he did just that after reading Ramsey’s letter. It is stated that he had a 2 hour meeting between reading and going to his “death” it did not take that long for Jon and Tourmand to get their plot together. Ghost and the raven know something is up (granted this is before Jon gets the letter) but if they could sense Jon was in danger they could sense what was about to happen, Ghost goes so far as to bite at Jon, and had he been allowed to go with Jon it would not have worked. So he remains locked up.

I had already figured Mel had glamoured someone to look like Jon, my sticking point was who? They would have to be willing, and would Jon allow someone he trusted, that was willing to do such a thing do it, probably not.

Now for the connecting pieces, I give credit here where credit is due: To Imp, for reminding us of those bodies locked in their cells that must be there for a reason, and to my son for saying “Doesn’t Rhallor give the power to raise the dead, what about those bodies?”

If Cat can be brought back after rotting in the water for days, a semi frozen body should be easy.

So this is what happened, Mel breathes life (a semblance of one anyway) into a convienent body, glamours it look like Jon, Jon goes into it long enough to make that stupid speech (after being convinced by Mel and Borug(the guy with the boar) that he can do this), body gets killed, Jon picks up Ghost, who is really freakin out cause Jon in a dead body really upsets him. Now I believe the wildlings may well go on to Winterfell, will Jon go with them or it was that only part of the plan to draw out the danger, I don’t know.

All of this allows Jon to rid himself of those standing in the way of what must be done, it also lets him keep his friends. I say this because he is of the North, in the North, followed by the North. If he is brought back by Mel, he becomes Un-Jon, someone the northerners would view as an other, even if he can go into Ghost while his body dies, they would still hold this view. To warg is acceptable even valued, as long it does not involve taking another person. A dead body, with the potential to be an other, would surely not count.



I rest my case and claim bragging rights when this all proves true! If it doesn’t we will just forget that I may have gone crazy!

The one sticking point is who would "volunteer" to be the fake Jon. I suspect that Dolorous Edd would, and I really hope he's not dead if that was the case.

Great thoery though. i support it 100%