What's up with the Catelyn hatin'? (spoilers)

[Transplanted Steeler]

Seriously. Does EVERYONE despise her? Am I the only one who didn't do jumping jacks after the Red Wedding? When she died I hurled my book across the room. Everything she does is motivated by a desperate love for her family. Yeah, she treated Jon Snow badly, but it would have been a little unbelievable if she had welcomed him into her home with open arms.

And her current status as grotesque, vengeful, undead demon-lady just creeps me out. I love it! I think it's my favorite supernatural element in the story so far.

[Dolorous Edd]

Originally Posted by Transplanted Steeler

Does EVERYONE despise her?

Errrrrrrrrm.... Yep, pretty much everyone.

[Boaz]

Yes, I'd go through my whole spiel again, but most people are sick of hearing it. So here's the links.

http://www.chronicles-network.com/fo...r-catleyn.html

http://www.chronicles-network.com/fo...elyn-dead.html

[ChasenFate]

I am indifferent.

[Winters_Sorrow]

She's a fairly despicable person with lots of insecurities.
Death took away the insecurities, I guess, so we are just left with the despicable person.

She's basically a brunette Cersei in many respects - would do anything for her kids but hates her husband's bastards. Loves her brother (hmmm? Now there would be a revelation about Edmure!) and dad, mother died young and her other sibling despises her.

I'm really seeing a lot of similarities here!!

Oh, and to carry on a conversation from another thread Boaz - I'd rather see UnCat vs UnCersei!
Get yer tickets now! (you can just picture UnNed & UnRobert rolling their eyes and going for a pint, can't you? )

[AryaUnderfoot]

Originally Posted by Transplanted Steeler

Seriously. Does EVERYONE despise her? Am I the only one who didn't do jumping jacks after the Red Wedding? When she died I hurled my book across the room.

You should definitely read the other Catelyn threads...

I don't despise her. She was never my favorite character, but I could understand and sympathize with her.

And the Red Wedding left me distraught. Not only the loss of Catelyn and Robb, but also the Mormonts and some of the other loyal followers- that cut me to the quick.
When my dad read that chapter, he just closed the book afterwards and sat there, staring across the room, for several minutes. That pretty much sums up my reaction as well.

[Boaz]

After Ned's unexpected (at least to me) death... I should have seen the Red Wedding coming, but I did not. I was shocked. But the characters I was sorry to see go were Maege and Dacey Mormont. The whole Mormont sub-story is interesting to me. And then there's long, lean, graceful, athletic, raven-haired Dacey. Forget your blondes (Cersei), your red heads (Cat, Sansa, and Ygritte), sluts (Shae), nobles (Brienne), exotics (Taena and Alayaya), and give black hair, long legs, and dexterity. Of course that could apply to Asha and Dacey, but Asha's too nasty.

[Transplanted Steeler]

Originally Posted by AryaUnderfoot

You should definitely read the other Catelyn threads...

I don't despise her. She was never my favorite character, but I could understand and sympathize with her.

And the Red Wedding left me distraught. Not only the loss of Catelyn and Robb, but also the Mormonts and some of the other loyal followers- that cut me to the quick.
When my dad read that chapter, he just closed the book afterwards and sat there, staring across the room, for several minutes. That pretty much sums up my reaction as well.

I felt like the little kid in "The Princess Bride" when he says "Grandpa, you're messing up the story!" I had to re-read it to believe it.

[Transplanted Steeler]

Originally Posted by Boaz

After Ned's unexpected (at least to me) death... I should have seen the Red Wedding coming, but I did not. I was shocked. But the characters I was sorry to see go were Maege and Dacey Mormont. The whole Mormont sub-story is interesting to me. And then there's long, lean, graceful, athletic, raven-haired Dacey. Forget your blondes (Cersei), your red heads (Cat, Sansa, and Ygritte), sluts (Shae), nobles (Brienne), exotics (Taena and Alayaya), and give black hair, long legs, and dexterity. Of course that could apply to Asha and Dacey, but Asha's too nasty.

I'm kind of digging these Dornish women myself.

[Boaz]

None of them have it all though. Obara got the height, Nymeria got the grace, and Tyene got the looks. Combine them and you might have Sarella... hmmm.

[Raven]

DE: nope, not everyone despises her.

WS: I can imagine no character Cat is less like than Cersei.

She doesn't actually hate Jon, for a start. She just doesn't want him living where she has to see him every day. There is no sign of anything personal in it. In fact, once he's gone to the Wall and she is off down South, she doesn't really think of him negatively at all. And she doesn't try to have him killed, which is a pretty major difference.

In fact she tolerates him eating, playing, listening to stories, being trained in swords, and learning from Maester Luwin alongside her own kids, even though she doesn't like it, for fifteen years. Pretty patient, all things considered. And not at all despicable.

You're right about the insecurities, though. It's pretty clear that Cat thinks Jon is the son of Ashara Dayne, and that she also thinks that Ashara was the greatest love of Ned's life, the one woman he loved and loves more than her. It's equally clear that she thinks that this is the reason he refuses to talk about Jon's mother. (As well, of course, as being the reason Ned brought his son home and insists on keeping him at WF.) Oh, and the son Ashara gave Ned (Cat thinks) just happens to look more like him than any of the kids Cat gave him.

Now, wouldn't you be pretty insecure if that was what you believed?

Besides that, hell, I've probably said it all before too. Cat's a pretty tough and clever woman, with a great deal of compassion, and a better human being than 90% of the characters in the series. Most of her 'mistakes' are no-win situations the author drops her in (he's the first to admit he gives her a hell of a hard time, second only to what Tyrion goes through). She has a blind spot about Jon, which as I say is understandable and is really Ned's fault for not telling her anything about him. Apart from that, she's one of the most original and refreshing characters in the series. How many other middle-aged mothers with no kewl magical powerz and whose ultimate ambition is to see her kids happily married do you see in fantasy fiction?

[Boaz]

Why is it that after reading Raven's posts I am always so uncertain about my own opinions?

Note to Raven: Stop making so much sense. I'll be forced to convert if you continue.

Originally Posted by Transplanted Steeler

I felt like the little kid in "The Princess Bride" when he says "Grandpa, you're messing up the story!" I had to re-read it to believe it.

Exactly!

[asdar]

I hated Cat but I won't restart old threads here by going into why I thought she was horrible. I love the undead Cat.

I'd say she was Cersei light, not quite to her level of being self centered or ruthless but getting close.

[Culhwch]

I liked Cat, but then I've always been a sucker for redheads. I think Raven argues the point better than I ever could, so I won't bother.

Boaz: even though the delectable Dacey was stolen from us (cursed Freys), Maege is still banging about, I believe, and there are a number of other daughters, so don't despair, the Mormonts may yet be back in all their Amazonian, chain-mail wearing glory....

[I, Brian]

What I disliked most wasn't so much Catelin's character, as much as her use as a character - in A Storm of Swords she's basically a literary usherette - she takes us to places to see different things to do with the story, without really being a part of the story itself. We have to go through Cat to see Renley, we have to go through Cat to see any part of Rob, and she's our viewpoint on Riverrun. As a character voice, it dissociates the reader from the action, by requiring we become *observers* of events, rather than *partakers* of events. In my opinion, we really should have had Robb and similar as POV characters to invole us more in their plot cycles, instead of us as readers simply being observers of them.