Disturbing "theme" in AFFC

[hedgeknight]

Is it just me or are some of you disturbed by the abundance of rapings, molestations, strong sexual content and language of AFFC? I'm not trying to be "holier than thou" and quite frankly, I've very much enjoyed Martin's brand of fantasy - I like some grit and vulgarity in fantasy literature. But, I think he went too far over the top in AFFC, much more so than in the first three books. Instead of using sex and sexual language to spice things up a bit, Martin unleashed a deluge of vulgarity that, to me, gives the impression of a young writer wishing to shock his audience.
I just think such "writing" is unnecessary to the storyline.

Thoughts, anyone?
-g-

[Dolorous Edd]

Originally Posted by hedgeknight

Is it just me or are some of you disturbed by the abundance of rapings, molestations, strong sexual content and language of AFFC? I'm not trying to be "holier than thou" and quite frankly, I've very much enjoyed Martin's brand of fantasy - I like some grit and vulgarity in fantasy literature. But, I think he went too far over the top in AFFC, much more so than in the first three books. Instead of using sex and sexual language to spice things up a bit, Martin unleashed a deluge of vulgarity that, to me, gives the impression of a young writer wishing to shock his audience.
I just think such "writing" is unnecessary to the storyline.

Thoughts, anyone?
-g-

I thought completely the opposite. With the absence of tyrion this book was far more restrained. (I mean really, I reckon the most used words in the first 3 books were: lion, of and lannister. Every bloody chapter he was at it with Shae! It's a miracle the guy didn't keel over and die! )

[JohnSnow]

In the first three books the sexual explicitness fit the storyline, Drogo and Danaerys for example.
Tyrion's super-impish relations with Shea, I will admit, seemed a bit wearing. I still think it fit into the story.

This book however seems to focus in detail on the raping, deflowering, etc.. I wonder if this is another byproduct of the "regional" splitting of the book. The area around King's Landing has been devastated by the war and it could be his intention to highlight that. One other possibility could be that this book concentrated heavily on Cersi. Her character seems to be losing grasp on certain aspects of reality and spent a lot of time thinking rude thoughts concerning other characters.

I would like to read a combined book of AFFC and ADWD intermixed the way Martin would have liked to have written it and see if I still feel the same way.

js

[Boaz]

I have felt that Martin has tried to keep the chaos and breakdown of morals and order during a civil war at a realistic level. The story of the Mountain's rape of an inkeeper's daughter was horrific, but fit the story.

I feel that Martin has made the bad guys evil, not just bland... The Mountain does not just lead raids, he rapes, murders, and relishes every minute of it; Tywin murders half the kingdom to keep his incestous daughter and her bastard inbred whelps in power. Martin's made the good people human... Jon slew Qhorin, loved Ygritte, and helped his brother's kill the wildlings; Robb raises his banners to rescue his father, declares himself king, wins battles, and breaks promises; Ned stands up to Robert, shows mercy to Cersei, does not tell Robert (on his deathbed) of Joff's parentage, and he proclaims himself a traitor to save Sansa.

Martin has not just made good guys good and bad guys bad... he's made them human in my opinion. So, I've bought into the regicide, flinging children from towers, rape, executions, murders, accusations of homosexuality, rape, lynchings, lies, swearing, incest, slavery, rape, murders, betrayals, treason, and prostitutes. Life is not a song, sweetling.

All that said, I thought Biter eating Brienne, Cersei's homosexual encounter, and Arianne's seduction of Arys were a bit too gratuitous for me. I felt that they were just inserted into AFFC because Martin wanted to feel like Quentin Tarantino. I don't know that any of those were necessary... they may be well written and aritistic, but to me they were there just to push the boundaries of what is acceptable.

hedgeknight, if that's what you've felt all along... well, that stinks.

Edit: JonSnow, you slipped that post in while I was writing mine! Welcome to the forums!

[AryaUnderfoot]

I have to admit that my initial reaction was that maybe some of the scenes were for simple shock value alone. But the more I think on it, the more I wonder how an author could otherwise convey the utter terror and chaos of a country that has experienced such upheaval? It would be a simple matter to say "the Mountain raped people," but this would leave GRRM's audience totally unaffected by it. The grisly detail, the horror of the experiences- this things are all important to making us feel like we are actually involved in the story. Hearing about a car crash on the news is nothing compared to seeing one with your very eyes.
So yes- it was shocking to be with Brienne while her face was chewed, and yes, Cersei's homoerotic experience did seem to be a bit much. To GRRM's credit, though, it wasn't simply "Clan of the Cave Bears" material. There were actual thoughts and feelings that went along with Cersei's experience that revealed what a true mess she has become. It goes beyond simply wishing she was a man. She has an extreme lust for power. Unfortunately, she has not been educated as a man would have been. When it comes to the Game of Thrones, Cersei has only been trained to play with one card: her sexuality. Her father did not train her in intrigue, war, leadership, or even how to balance a checkbook, as it were. She has no idea how to operate, except by using her sexuality as a tool for manipulation. Tywin would have done better to educate all three of his children the same, instead of using Jaime as a sword, Tyrion as a brain, and Cersei as a bribe.

[hedgeknight]

"hedgeknight, if that's what you've felt all along... well, that stinks."

Howdy Boaz - in truth, I've felt like you - that Martin has created human characters, portraying them in such a way as to give them real personas - I love his work! I've been a supportive fan since page one of Game of Thrones. I love the richness of this series - from the people to the customs to the lands and everything in between. I've never read a series that I felt I was "in" the book when reading - I could smell the sweat from crossing swords in the practice yard, taste the wine of the Arbor, hear the thundering hooves of charging horses, hear the creaking of hempen rope as a bloated fly-covered corpse dangles beneath it. I just love that type of writing and Martin is one of the best.

So, my feelings are more of disappointment with the gratuitous depictions. And the scene with Biter literally made me queasy.

And JohnSnow - thanks for the PM! I'm fairly new here too - nice place; good folks.
-g-

[The Blackfish]

I agree with Arya that the amount of explicitness in the narration seems to be justified in creating a story that touches its readers emotions and draws them into the story on a level that would not be possible otherwise. For this reason I am able to stomach the violence and the sex because it is written for a purpose, and not just for titilation.

What I am less comfortable with is a thought that has been in my mind for some time now, and this seems like a good thread to share it in.
Has anyone taken much notice that many of the female characters in ASoIaF are rather less than an acceptable age to be sexually active? I understand and accept that in the world of Westeros and beyond, such things are normal, and it is infact accepted that when a girl "flowers" around her 13th birthday, she will soon after be married off and expect to produce babies. This is also true of certain cultures in our world, if not in these times, at least historically.
My concern is that these things are NOT accepted in our world - the world/culture of the reader. Dany in particular was not much more than 13 when married to Drogo, and some of their scenes were very explicit and nearly made me vomit as I read about the massivly framed Drogo with the small 13 year old Dany.
Don't get me wrong, I really like the Danyaerys POV and admire her for all that she has achieved. But every time I read the sexual parts of her story, I keep thinking "this girl is only about 14 or 15." Just doesn't seem right.

I think that perhaps GRRM has gone a little overboard in the amount of incest and paedophilic tendencies.

Any thoughts?

[hedgeknight]

It's a fine line he's walking, that's for sure. And in certain cultures, even our own years ago, it was perfectly acceptable to marry young and bear children.
It doesn't disturb me that betrothals are made often for older "lords" and younger ladies. What disturbs me is the same thing that disturbs you, Blackfish - the explicit detail of those scenes. Some may say it's just part of the story, but to me, it's a little creepy.
I work as a school counselor and 12-14 year old girls are just that - girls. Not women ready for sex.
Just some thoughts - good discussion. Anyone else?
-g-

[Boaz]

I'm not an artsy person, but I feel that Martin's depiction of Dany's wedding and marriage, Margaery's weddings and marriages, Ned and Catelyn's lovemaking, Cersei and Jaime's lovemaking, Tyrion's search for love (with Shae), the Night's Watch rapers memories, Lyssa's screams of delight, and other depictions of sexual acts were pertinent to the sitz im leben. Now, should we enjoy this world (does the author enjoy it?) and the strong (oft times violent) sexual themes? Can we enjoy the story and the setting without desiring this fantasy in our own lives?

I'd hate to think that someone would get off on Chiswyck's (iirc) tale, Myrcella's wound, Theon's seduction of the captain's daughter and his groping of Asha, Cersei and Jaime's relationship, Tysha's gang rape, etc.

I do not think that 12-14 year old girls are ready emotionally, psychologically, spiritually, or even culturally for sexual activity even if they appear physically prepared. I don't think boys are either, for that matter.

There was an article in the Denver Post (iirc) on Sunday that dealt with parents in Malawi giving their 9-14 daughters away as sex slaves or wives to settle financial debts. It seems that this is not legal, nor sanctioned by custom, but it happens fairly often and is accepted.

All that is not good, but overall I'm surprised that I enjoy the characters who are despicable. What is Martin saying about our values? Everyone who plays by the rules loses in the Game of Thrones.

I'll be reading The Chronicles of Narnia to my niece and nephews... and The Lord of the Rings when they get older, but A Song of Ice and Fire is not for children.

Tolkien and Lewis read like high fantasy, fairy tales, and myths where the good guys win and great morals are setup as pillars of culture. Duty, Hard Work, Love, Piety, Diligence, Honor, Friendship, Redemption, and Sacrifice shine through as lights for our lives. These, like traditional high fantasy (based off our classic myths and legends), esteem certain moral values.

Martin's work is not high fantasy... it's a fired from work, street brawl, passed out in the gutter, ugly look at life. Every time I think Sacrifice, Love, Honor, and Friendship will save the day... they get their heads or hands chopped off, they get sent to The Wall, they get framed for murder, or they get tossed from a window. I'm not sure what Martin's values are... but since hedgeknight brought it up, I'm somewhat bothered that I'm enjoying the ride.

[Cssndra]

Actually do remember that in the middle ages it was common for a girl to be married off long before hitting what we consider puberty. Boys too - children were often married as young as age six to cement a political alliance. They weren't expected to consummate their marriages until the girl had her first menstrual cycle.

Just saying, plenty of historical precedent for this no matter how gross we think it is now....

[Winters_Sorrow]

Well, I've been sneaking a peek at this interesting conversation and there's a lot of excellent points made by everyone. I've had a good think about my view on this and I've added my 2c as well, for what it's worth

I don't think what is portrayed in Martin's books constitute as gratiuitous (although it is often extreme and explict!). The events which occur to these characters form part of how they view the world.

Cersei is treated, from an early age, as a political marriage dowry rather than a person. It is expected that she will become the 'perfect' wife for whoever her father may choose for her - often the very high birth nobles didn't even get a choice or say in their partner. Cersei saw this and saw her brother as being able to do the things she wished she could do. She frequently mentions how no-one could tell her & Jamie apart until she hit early puberty. How much of a shock must that have been to her?? Suddenly she's told to be pretty, learn to play the harp, learn to be obedient to her father & husband, and then there's Jamie her "twin" in every sense - they've shared everything together - now, he can become a knight, travel the land and have adventures. She's allowed none of that. Ayra is 'lucky' in some respects in that she was allowed to follow her heart and was out of the public eye, living so far north. Although, it's a matter for debate whether or not she would have been 'forced' to become more ladylike as she approached marriageable age.

Dany was shaped by her experiences too - when we first see her, she's a terrified young girl, completely dominated by her brother and yes, she is very young when she is married to Khal Drogo. I think GRRM was very brave - rather than shy away from the subject, he tackled it head on, and Dany completely changed over the course of her marriage, emotionally and physically. She was able to stand up to her brother and become a leader and "Mother of Dragons!"

Sansa was an innocent little girl with romantic dreams of being a lady - after over a year as a captive surrounded by enemies and having the sword of marrying Joffrey over her head (how glad was she when he dumped her!!?? ), she was forced to grow up and grow out as a character.

I'm not trying to defend some of GRRM's depictions, but the (often horrific)events these characters go through, will greatly inform how their character changes over time. That's why I'm loving the fact that Sam, Jon, Arya, Tyrion, Sansa, Jamie, Bran et al have all had traumatic experiences happen to them and, rather than shy away and 'spare us' the event, GRRM has allow us to crawl under the skin of these characters in a way we could never do if he "cut away" from the graphic nature of these events. I mean, c'mon, having your hands severed and then hung around your neck until they rot away? How visceral and gross an image is that - but, my goodness it certainly allowed us to understand how/why Jamie changed didn't it?

I think the, at times severe, moments in this series have turned it into one of the reasons I am able to be sucked in so completely - it may be horrifying at times, but it never feels anything less than 100% realistic.

[AryaUnderfoot]

Honestly, the ages of the sexually active girls in these books, while they are younger than I would prefer, is not something that raises any red flags with me. People talk of what used to be acceptable, what's acceptable now, and make comparisons to this story, but a careful look at modern times will show that our views about young girls' sexuality are pretty darn messed up. We have pop icons like Britney Spears and Jessica Simpson representing the virgin/whore dichotomy that seems to be ever prevalent in society, encouraging girls to be alternately demure and seductive. Young girls all over this country, and I'm sure all over the globe as well, are experimenting sexually as we speak. They're taught by their parents and in schools that sex is taboo and a no-no until they're married or in love, but then they turn on the TV and there is their favorite singer, barely clad, gyrating her hips and singing about how "drrrrty" she is. They can't walk down the street without seeing sex at every turn. Every day I see girls who are as young as 12 years old who are dressed like little sexpots. And I'm sure that a great number of them are sexually active. They're just taught to hide it, to be ashamed of it.
I'm not saying I think it's right- I think it's sad, actually. But I am saying that GRRM's books do reflect what is happening in our world today.

[ChasenFate]

Well after thinking about what I read and if it really bothered me. I have decided no. I wasn't disturbed. If it were something that was happening in real life then it would bother me. I guess in a way I am desensitized to it. Which could be viewed as a bad thing, but I would like to think I would be pissed if I read something in the newspaper that was along those lines.

[Trey Greyjoy]

Im not really bothered by the "spicy" material and agree that it lends emotional inpact to the narrative. I do think there has been an overall increase in the "sauciness" as the story has gone on...

I do believe using vile deeds to define the evil characters is a slippery slope, however. With each new greater villain, authors generally have to "up the ante" to convince the reader this new character is even more vile than the previous ones. I think GRRM is a good enough author to avoid that trap ( I hope! ) We already have a charater who rapes and eats underage girls so Im a bit concerned where we might go to from here!

[Cssndra]

Wow, Arya, I think you hit the nail right on the head. We infuse our young (here in the States, at least) with such a sense of mystery about sex that they have the idea that it's better than it is. I mean....the first few times I had sex I was like "is this IT???? this SUCKS". While physically mature at a young age, I didn't...um...know myself enough to really let go and enjoy things until in my mid twenties. So when I hear little girls in the mall giggling about this boy or that boy or what they've done, I have a sense of pity for them. They are wasting so much of themselves on nothing, and in ten years will regret what they have done....