Disturbing "theme" in AFFC

[Lukeometer]

I think that the sexual content and other more seedy aspects are necessary for the storyline, the world george r.r martin depicts is not one of perfection. People die, people do ermm other thinks , its a way of life. Quintessential to the storyline in my opinion.

[Jinglehopper]

Originally Posted by the_faery_queen

arranged marriages is legalised rape, in my mind. for both sides! (if they both have to consumate it, and don't want to, but are forced to, it's rape) just because they are married, doesn't mean it isn't rape. they didn't have a choice in the marriage after all

not sure who the rapist is, exactly, tho! but its still nonconsentual forced sex, so rape.

awful idea. it really is. freaks me out a little that people are sold in marriage like that, that they still are, without any consent, making them nothing more tahn breeding machines. its just wrong.

and you can see how that sort of treatement messed up cersi! being made to feel that she is nothing but a brood mare, not as good as her male twin, messed her up pretty badly!

I find your lack of proper puncuation and grammar more offensive than what's written in GRRM's books. Just kidding, lol.

Seriously though, get off your high horse. This is a story. If you're upset with rape scenes, don't read them. And while you're at it, skip over the hundred or so acts of violence described in his books until you're left with nothing more than Sansa's romantic songs of knights in shining armor. You're talking abut removing the exact passages which sets Martin apart from the rest of the fantasy set.

You have the right to censor what you want to read, but please don't do it for others.

[the_faery_queen]

um, no. i have every right to voice my opinion and i find needless rape offensive and i think he is better than that. to remove it would make no difference as it didn't add anything to the plot and where was i saying that it had to be all nice? i said nothing about incest, rape references, death or anything else, i said no needless rape scenes that add nothing to the plot or characters. if she was a main character and it changed her, fine. she wasn't. she was some random made up girl, raped by some random made up men, in graphic detail, for no valid reason whatsoever and how can that EVER be ok?

and i am sorry, also, but it isn't just a story! rape cases in THIS world are failing. more rapists are getting away with it. and part of that comes down to teh fact that society is more desensisted to the horrors of rape. you shrug it off as just a story, and thats the problem! you aren't aware that it is a part of a problem, that it is a bigger issue. and it IS a problem where abusing women is seen as entertainment, as part of a story, and no one cares less about it. its in films, its in books, its on tv shows, and it is done for all sorts of reasons, but rarely to develop the plot or the character. it is done for entertainment, and im sorry but i feel too strongly about women's rights to be ok with the idea that raping and abusing fictional women is entertainment.

and i am not censoring anything. i am pointing out that i thought said scene was beneath him. and i am allowed that opinion. i dont' think it is fair, or right, to be rude, as i think you are, about something that i take seriously! enjoy your rape scenes as much as you want, but don't think that it is just part of a story, because it isn't. it goes further tahn that and has far more impact than you are aware of. and part of the problem is that people aren't aware of it, that they just shrug it off.

[the_faery_queen]

as it goes, i am going to avoid this thread now, before it goes along paths i have been down before. i dont' think needless rape and abuse of women, men or children, is ever acceptable, in fiction or on tv.

i am a feminist and taking women's rights seriously. that's just the way i am. and i do find it a worry that people will shrug off things like this as being just a story

i am not anti violence in films/books. i don't think the world should be sugar coated and bland, but i do think that scenes of violence and abuse that adds nothing to plot or characters, that can simply be removed without changing a thing, says far more about the writer than the world. and i do think that the way people accept it, and write it, is a scarey reflection of our attitude toward it.

but that's just me. as i said, not going to discuss this anymore, cos i may get angry, and that leads to me getting ranty and rude. and i rather not do that.

[Rosemary]

I wonder how many GRRM readers find the 'rape scenes' entertaining? I don't think you will find too many. Yet it is part of GRRM's story and as I see it an important part of the storyline.

I know many who have read books with these particular scenes in them but they haven't gone out and raped anyone just because it was written in the books.

[Jinglehopper]

Originally Posted by Rosemary

I wonder how many GRRM readers find the 'rape scenes' entertaining? I don't think you will find too many. Yet it is part of GRRM's story and as I see it an important part of the storyline.

I know many who have read books with these particular scenes in them but they haven't gone out and raped anyone just because it was written in the books.

Exactly. There is no correlation between reading something in a book and commiting a crime. Studies have even proven that exposure to pornography and sexual content does not increase sexual deviancy or crime in any way. (I don't have the exact study but I'm pretty sure read that somewhere.)

Fairy Queen (who'll not be checking this thread anymore I guess) keeps saying that the rape did nothing to further the plot. Yet it showed Ser Gregor's inherent evil nature, it gave reason for the Hound and Arya to attack three armed and dangerous men who were merely telling this story, it showed many things and it's simple deletion would make the story less important, not more.

[AryaUnderfoot]

Originally Posted by the_faery_queen

and i am sorry, also, but it isn't just a story! rape cases in THIS world are failing. more rapists are getting away with it. and part of that comes down to teh fact that society is more desensisted to the horrors of rape. you shrug it off as just a story, and thats the problem! you aren't aware that it is a part of a problem, that it is a bigger issue. and it IS a problem where abusing women is seen as entertainment, as part of a story, and no one cares less about it..... and part of the problem is that people aren't aware of it, that they just shrug it off.

No, it isn't just a story- it's a great one. It makes you squirm a little bit. The rape scenes in particular are graphic just for that reason, so that you will sympathize with the victim and realize how horrific her plight is.

I don't believe that GRRM's particular writing style desensitizes us to rape. He doesn't make it enticing in any way, and he's not blasé about it. He shows it for what it is; a brutal act. The fact that the men who do it are remorseless and brag about what they have done illustrates, to my way of reading it, that there are some people in this world who are simply devoid of any good.

Eliminating all rape scenes from literature will not solve any problems. It is a good thing that you react with horror when you read such things, but asking that they never show up in stories, real or fictional, is just avoiding a major issue. "To Kill a Mockingbird" was banned from many schools because it contained a racial slur. It was dismissed as a book that condoned racism and racist acts, when in fact it has been an eye-opener for many regarding a still prevalent issue. Part of addressing a problem is making sure that you do not turn a blind eye. Rape should not be something that is only discussed in pamphlets and textbooks.

[Boaz]

Originally Posted by Jinglehopper

Exactly. There is no correlation between reading something in a book and commiting a crime. Studies have even proven that exposure to pornography and sexual content does not increase sexual deviancy or crime in any way. (I don't have the exact study but I'm pretty sure read that somewhere.)

Dear Jinglehopper, I respectfully disagree.

First, let me state that it is not my desire to start a flame war.

Second, I don't want to put words in your mouth.

Third, I'm no expert on these subjects... this is my gut reaction.

Fourth, in no way do I claim to represent the beliefs or feelings of the owners, administrators, nor moderators of these forums.

Ted Bundy, Dennis Rader (aka BTK), Charles Ng, Leonard Lake, Richard Speck, John Wayne Gacy, and Richard Ramirez (aka The Night Stalker) are some of the most notorious murderers in American history... and they all were into pornography, more correctly violent and deviant pornography. Rape and murder went hand in hand for these men.

I don't have any studies to back this up. But it seems to me that the attack, rape, and murder of a person is not spontaneous. The violence may be unscheduled by the perpetrator, but it has been fantasized before hand. The villain happens to be looking for opportunities to act on the fantasies.

I'd like to differentiate between hardcore, visually, explicit pornography and the brief description of a rape in a novel.

I'm not an expert on criminology. But there is a difference in the intent of pornography and the intent of the rape of the tavern girl in ACOK or ASOS (I forgot which). Pornography's intent is to elicit a desire to see again and/or act out the visual material. Pornography's goal is pleasure. The rape that GRRM depicts is supposed to evoke loathing for the act and the perpetrators.

But, thank God we live in a free society. We can share ideas, pictures, words, and feelings. If we want to be responsible and fill our minds with art, literature, music, and movies that exalt good and villainize evil, then we are free to do so. If we want to fill our minds with multi-media that exalts evil and villainizes good, then we are free to do so also. But there is a cost with doing either... our bodies ultimately act out what we fill our minds with.

Sincerely, Boaz

[Winters_Sorrow]

This thread is starting to teeter on the edge of personal attack. Please try and remember that this subject matter will invoke strong feelings in people and try to respect a person's opinion even if you don't agree with it.

Personally, I agree that society is becoming more desensitised to violent crime as we are being exposed to it every day on every media from film to music to books.

As to the specific point of whether the tavern rape scene was gratuitous; I can see both points of view. The scene was brutally explicit and shocking, involved minor (with the possible exception of Gregor) characters and there are other ways of saying how evil this group of soldiers were, without resorting to that scene.
But, the flipside is that as soon as Arya overheard that scene, she immediately used up the first of her 'deaths' with Jaqen. This led her to become more bold (the ghost of Harrenhal! ) and eventually led to her change to becoming more proactive (weasel soup?) and ironically desensitise her to death to the point where she was willing and able to slit a man's throat in cold blood.

It may only have been a first step to her profound character change, but it was a step. It may have needed something that shocking, that evil to jolt her into action.

[hedgeknight]

Originally Posted by hedgeknight

Is it just me or are some of you disturbed by the abundance of rapings, molestations, strong sexual content and language of AFFC? I'm not trying to be "holier than thou" and quite frankly, I've very much enjoyed Martin's brand of fantasy - I like some grit and vulgarity in fantasy literature. But, I think he went too far over the top in AFFC, much more so than in the first three books. Instead of using sex and sexual language to spice things up a bit, Martin unleashed a deluge of vulgarity that, to me, gives the impression of a young writer wishing to shock his audience.
I just think such "writing" is unnecessary to the storyline.

Thoughts, anyone?

Above is my initial post for this thread. Since then, it has seemingly become a thread on rape, which was not what I intended, but it is interested to see what area of intent of the majority of the posts.
Personally, I was more disturbed by what I would call the overuse of vulgarity in AFFC than the tavern girl rape scene. Simply because, like I stated in the beginning, I feel that it was tasteless and crude just for the sake of being tasteless and crude, not for the advancement of the story. I don't like the word c*nt and Cersei used it frequently and it seemed that everyone was f**king this or f**king that, to which my reply is WTF is going on!
I love the grittiness of Martin's work - it has kept me interested since the prologue of Game of Thrones. However, in AFFC, I just think he went a little to far. Just my opinion.

And one more thing - since this is an open forum, if you can't discuss a topic without getting angry and upset and becoming insulting or rude, then stay the f*ck away!
-g-

[the_faery_queen]

i said i was staying away for a bit, because i was angry, not because of this, neccessaruly, but because i was having a similiar conversation elsewhere (which i am still avoiding) which made me even more mad and i didn't want this going out of control tho i am still not happy being told i was on my high horse for having an opinion about one element of this book. or being told i was trying to censor it just for disliking and finding one element unneccessary.

anyhoo, other reasons could have been given for ayra to have a man killed, without it being rape. but martin chose to have him boasting about a rape, and that is what bothers me. that he chose sexual abuse of a woman as a valid reason to push on the plot, and it is something i see a lot of. abusing women to ahcieve some other goal, when that goal could have been acheived any number of ways.

the ONLY positive thing i can say about the rape, is the way martin showed the rapist. he showed us what sort of man he was, that he thought perhaps she enjoyed it when she sto9pped fighting, showed us how mob rule can make people do something like that, and that was a fairly realistic potrayal of how a lot of people view sex. it wasn't making the rapist into some sort of monster, but showing what an idiot he was, concerned with himself, no empathy, no regret, and that is how a lot of rapists do function. so i do applaud him for having a good perception of that side of it, more than many other writers do.

but at the same time, it was unneccessary and i will never think it oterhwise. because i don't think it is martin's job to show us how bad a rapist is, to show us that side of his character, as he was a nobody character. for me i felt it unneccessary because it could have been done ANY other way, but martin chose rape, and for me that says more about him than anything else. not that he is a misognist, or likes rape, or anything like that! just that it is often used by writers, raping some woman, and the carelessness of it is what worries me. little consideration is given to it being accurate, and that is what i think is damaging.

so the rapists view point did a lot to give us insight into how they think, but the scene for me will always be yet another one of those, he raped a woman to acheieve a point, elements, and i think that martin could have found many other ways to achieve the same thing. but that's me, and my thoughts.

as for the swearing and so on, i dont' find that as offensive. they're just words. i dont like the use of racist/sexist/homophobic words, but swearing and so on doesnt' bother me. of course, if it does get used too often it looses its impact, which just makes it rather pointless. *shrug*

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by hedgeknight

Is it just me or are some of you disturbed by the abundance of rapings, molestations, strong sexual content and language of AFFC?

I tried to get my girlfriend to read the series, but she said she couldn't stand the "macho" writing - she didn't like the themes of sex and violence at all.

My personal opinion is that for what he's trying to achieve, I think he's doing a good job - war as an ugly process that goes far beyond the battlefield.

But...it's not going to be something that everyone can read, and that doesn't invalidate any person's opinions.

Funnily enough, I barely remember the tavern rape scene - when strikes out more is the psychological horror, such as when Sansa is taken to the tower to view the rotting heads of her father and household in AGoT.

My only real quibble is some of the realism of the wounding - my understanding is that you don't get "splatter" from a sword blow unless an earlier wound has allowed blood to pool in that place. It's a common complaint I have with fiction, though.

Overall, though, when you hear of the general carnage and destruction of the kingdoms in AFFC, it really does a good job of communicating a sense of war as perdition in an historical sense. The difference being, we can touch individual people to care about in the story, which is much harder with real history.

2c.

[Teresa Edgerton]

When people say that it's just a story and it didn't bother them, I'd suggest that tends to validate faery_queen's point that readers are becoming increasingly desensitized, rather than refute it.

And there seems to be a lot of black-and-white thinking here, as if one of two things has to be true: either someone who reads a graphic rape scene in a book will therefore be incited to acts of sexual violence OR reading that scene will have no influence at all. Is it so hard to conceive that the truth might fall somewhere in between? That books and movies and a host of other things that desensitize us as a society might add yet another contributing factor to an already volatile cultural stew? (Which I think is closer to what faery_queen is trying to say.)

[the_faery_queen]

yes

thanks for putting it better than i can. i am So bad at condenscing my rambings (and general writing )

and you're very right, the shrugging it off as just a story does confirm my point. wish i had thought of that!

[AryaUnderfoot]

Originally Posted by Kelpie

And there seems to be a lot of black-and-white thinking here, as if one of two things has to be true: either someone who reads a graphic rape scene in a book will therefore be incited to acts of sexual violence OR reading that scene will have no influence at all.

I've been trying to say this whole time that a graphic scene in a book can do the opposite- not incite acts of sexual violence, but create an awareness and a sensitivity towards such things. I do not think that scenes such as the tavern scene only promote either a thirst for violence or deadens the reactions one has to them. Unless one is constantly reading a barrage of graphic rape scenes, I fail to see how reading of one or two episodes will encourage us to go out and do it on our own, or to be completely disinterested. I think many of us experience a range of emotions when reading or hearing about such a thing- horror, sympathy, outrage, disgust, sadness, and in pretty much every case, animosity towards the person who has victimized an innocent person.