Disturbing "theme" in AFFC

[Boaz]

There was a comedian recently saying something about mixed messages... "Sex is dirty... Save it for the one you love!"

[Jinglehopper]

I think it's been pretty obvious from AGOT that Martin was a sex fiend (he's said more than a few times that the character he identifies the most with is Tyrion.). He holds nothing back, nor do I feel he adds things "just to shock." He writes just what he needs in order to make his points about character. Each of the scenes which the OP and others have mentioned would be completely ruined by glossing over detail. For example, Cersei's encounter says something about her character that's different from when Dany experiences something similar with her handmaidens. And please, he's not THAT graphic. It's not like he's describing purple-headed warriors and jade gates here.

I agree with a lot of what Arya said above, but I think if we as a society in general were less concerned with sex and ages and whether or not sexual content is "ok," we would have less problems. Drop the puritanism and accept that humans are sexual beings, regardless of age or political correctness. But that's just my anti-establishment thinking.

[Raven]

Interesting discussion. I would tend to agree that every case mentioned is actually crucial to the story.

Dany and Drogo, for example: that scene is absolutely crucial to understanding Dany's character, and how she is affected by her marriage to Drogo. Had that scene been glossed over in any detail, the natural assumption would have been that Drogo had, if not raped Dany, at least assumed her consent. In order to understand how Drogo changes Dany, we need to understand that she genuinely loves him, and he her. And that can only be understood fully by showing their wedding night.

Tyrion and Shae is the one that gets mentioned most often as gratuitous, because there's so damn many of those scenes! But again, it's necessary to see Tyrion gradually falling for Shae against his better judgement in order to understand how he feels about her betrayal. And that has to be a gradual process, or we would not respect Tyrion: and it has to be sexual, because that's all there is to their relationship.

I could go on. Dany and the handmaidens, for example: that's there to show that Dany longs for a new partner, but it's not just sexual release she is seeking. She needs more. Cersei's scenes with Jaime and Taena. Jon and Ygritte. And so on. All are essential to the plot. Same with the mutilations and molestations. GRRM is too good a writer to resort to gratuitous titillation of any kind.

[Theorycraft]

I agree with the previous poster that the majority of the scenes are focussing on character development and are telling someone about the person through the description of the act, that is essential to the story. I think this is never more haert-wrenching and more clear than the example of Tyrion. We learn that his first girlfriend who he married and loved and who loved him was true - and she was raped by a barracks of his father's guards while Tyrion watched, and then participated. This is contrasted with his love for Shae, which is true, and her love for him which is false, and ends with him finding her a willing party in Tywin's bed. He kills her.

It seems that all his adult life Tyrion has used his tremendous intellect as a weapon and defence mechanism to distance himself from intimacy, as a result of his first experience, and his life experience of being tortured and ridiculed for his appearance. This mindset has always allowed him to consider himself to be on some higher moral ground when it comes to his relationships with people - perversely, Tyrion is one of the few characters who is both extremely moral, and has yet to be maimed or crippled by outside forces (except emotionally). I do wonder what this revelation about his crofter's daughter will do to these admirable qualities and his ideas of social justice.

[hedgeknight]

Wow! Can't believe there is still interest in this thread. But, originally, I stated that what disturbs me is the AMOUNT of explicitness in AFFC (not the previous three). Again, when I read AFFC it feels like Martin is a young writer who, like 2 Live Crew, is just being as nasty as he wants to be, without adding anything to the story content.
But...that's just me.
-g-

[the_faery_queen]

i neve rthink of danys as terrified. in fact, the reason i dislike her so much is because i see her as rather cold, that she doesn't seem to have any emotions that i think are believable. i see everything she expresses as rather like crocidle tears, fake and not real.

i haven't read feast for crows yet, and i am hopgin, so much, that there isn't a huge tonne of rape and stuff! i am VERY anti rape in books. it was the main thing that put me off goodkind. (granted, he used it carelessly, every other page some poor woman was being abused sexually in some way) but i do think that rape has to be used carefully, that it can't just be for shock value, and i don't usually go along with the arguments of, it shows a world falling apart, its realistic, that sort of thing happens in real life, becuse fantasy IS NOT real life. its fantasy. it can be anything you want it to be

the rape of the tavern girl, that was far too graphic, and needlessly and disgusting. and i have to say, i really PRAY that anything that happens in the later books is not on that level, or that pointless, otherwise i fear i may have to stop reading him. i really do take it that seriously, and i don't think i could happily buy these books with that sort of thing going on for no rason other than shock value

on the incest/pedophila part. well, danys was 13. but girls have been married that young before in real life. yes i know i said that fantasy isn't real life, it doesn't have to be the same, but there was a reason for her to be married that young, a lot of the plot for her couldn't have happened without it. while rape, for no reason but to show how crap the world has become, isnt' really neccessary as there are other ways of doing it.

the incest, well, they both consent, jamie and cersi, i don't have a problem with it. i rather like it! but that's because i like them. and for her, i think, its about power and self assurance. she, as others have said, only knows how to use her body, how to get what she wants thrfough sex, that is all women in martin's world seem to be about, after all, sex, for male pleasure, and babies, so i think sex with jamie gives her control over her life and her sexuality, one of the few choices she can make, because she was just sold off as a means to make babies otherwise.

so on topic, well, the only account of sexual violence in the first three books i remember is the rape of that tavern girl. i really don't recall anything else being that graphic! i remember the horse sex position thing with danys, and what they did with tyrions love, but none of it stood out the way the tavern girl rape did (i even remember quotes, i found it so abhorant) but for me, i think, the key part of that was that it WAS a rape, and that it was, in my opinion, totally irrelevant and needless to the plot. so that stood out more in my mind. if other scenes that happen are more of the other sexual encoutners (and not like that tavern rape) then no, i wouldn't say it was too grpahic or over the top. but if they are like that, and are that pointless, then i would say yes. but i haven't read it yet, so i guess i will soon find out! tho now i am feeling a bit nervous! because rape in books for me really is a big deal and something i take seriously (as much as i do with it in films and media in general) and i really hope he's been careful with it.

so yeha, it really depends on what you consider graphic i guess! and i am really hoping it isn't what i consider graphic! because otherwise i will be agreeing with hedgeknight, i am sure, that it doesn't add anything to the content and is just being ansty

unfortunatly, i find that a lot of fantasy writers do this. add rapes for no reason. its part of what worries me about society in general. but that's a whole private thing

[Anika]

Originally Posted by The Blackfish

I agree with Arya that the amount of explicitness in the narration seems to be justified in creating a story that touches its readers emotions and draws them into the story on a level that would not be possible otherwise. For this reason I am able to stomach the violence and the sex because it is written for a purpose, and not just for titilation.

What I am less comfortable with is a thought that has been in my mind for some time now, and this seems like a good thread to share it in.
Has anyone taken much notice that many of the female characters in ASoIaF are rather less than an acceptable age to be sexually active? I understand and accept that in the world of Westeros and beyond, such things are normal, and it is infact accepted that when a girl "flowers" around her 13th birthday, she will soon after be married off and expect to produce babies. This is also true of certain cultures in our world, if not in these times, at least historically.
My concern is that these things are NOT accepted in our world - the world/culture of the reader. Dany in particular was not much more than 13 when married to Drogo, and some of their scenes were very explicit and nearly made me vomit as I read about the massivly framed Drogo with the small 13 year old Dany.
Don't get me wrong, I really like the Danyaerys POV and admire her for all that she has achieved. But every time I read the sexual parts of her story, I keep thinking "this girl is only about 14 or 15." Just doesn't seem right.

I think that perhaps GRRM has gone a little overboard in the amount of incest and paedophilic tendencies.

Any thoughts?

but that's the thing. this book is not set in our time, or even on our world. but you're reading it as if it is. yes centuries ago this sort of thing was more then acceptable, and practiced throughout the world. it wasn't until the late 1800s that these practices started to die off. but while reading these books you have take yourself out of this world, this realm and imgine if you lived in events you are reading. you wouldn't think that being 14 and being married was a bad thing. you have to understand that in a world such as grrm has created people did not live as long as we do now. if they waited until they were in their 20s to start making babies, the world would be lacking a few million people. so they had to make sure that they passed on their line, thus starting as soon as a girl flowered. women have been used as bartering tools for thousands of years, and only now cease to be. in this time, no it's not okay for 14 year olds to be running around having sex and babies all the time in my opinion. but in grrm's world, that's just how it is.

[AryaUnderfoot]

Originally Posted by the_faery_queen

...that sort of thing happens in real life, becuse fantasy IS NOT real life. its fantasy. it can be anything you want it to be

I agree- fantasy can be anything you want it to be. And in GRRM's case, it appears that he wanted it to be a rather harsh depiction of what can and does happen in real life.

The rape of the tavern girl was just as you said- disgusting, disturbing, and totally unnecessary. Rape itself is unnecessary, but it happens every day. Statistically, one out of every four women in America has been or will be raped (according to what I was taught). Gang rapes happen all the time, even in small towns (I recall one particular fraternity at my tiny college was shut down because there were video tapes of such an act happening behind their closed doors).

I am sensitive to rape, it angers and disgusts me, and I believe harsher penalties should be paid by rapists. However, I would rather read GRRM uncensored than simply delete all of the brutalities from his texts. I like that he uses a fantasy setting but does not tone it down. It is disturbing to read, but it doesn't play mind games, either. It shows rape for what it is. He could simply say "a girl was raped" or "forced" or "taken against her will." But what good would that do? How would it heighten one's sensitivity to what was happening?

One of the reasons why I love reading GRRM is because it's not all light and happy all the time. The tragedies are truly tragic, and evoke real emotions. If he were to simplify it, make it G-rated, he'd lose a lot in the telling. Yes, it's harsh, and it can be unsettling- I've encountered worse, believe it or not, simply reading the daily news.

[the_faery_queen]

its 1 in 10 in the uk (victims of rape) and 1 in 4 of domestic abuse. which is a scarey stat.

for me tho, the rape had no bearing on the plot, or the characters, and therefore it was unneccessary. to me it felt as though it was beneath him. he is a superb writer, and there he is, writing a graphic and disgusting rape, with no actual purpose. the only conclusions that people have offered for why it is there is, it shows the harshness of war (i disagree with that as she was raped by local soldiers, not in the heat of battle and she isn't an enemy's woman) it shows the lack of respect for women( that has been shown many other times in many other ways) it gives ayra a reason to kill that man (well why did he have to die? why not kill someone else more valid? why not give him another reason to die instead of such a graphic gang rape?)and its for shock value. well i dont' think women should be raped and abused for shock value!

i have no problem with anty of the other incidents that epople seem to have problems with. danys sex, the incest, even bran being shoved out the window, all of that had a point that i could see and understand, it all added to the plot or the characters, it was all part of development. btu this scene i can't see the point to and i personally can't accept it. rape does happen in real life, but fantasy isn't real life, and yes, he might have wanted to show what does happen in real life, but why? why does he feel the need to show it to us? rape is what every woman fears, so we are all fully aware of the horrors of it, did he do it just for the male audience? i doubt it. i doubt he is striking out against the horrors of rape, or having some moralistic code going on, if he was, that would be clear in other ways. i think he did it just to shock, and because of htat i dont' accept it and think its beneath him

this is something i take personally, you might be able to tell! i just think that society is far too desenstied to rape and sexual violence. people think its funny (believe it or not, they do) films have women raped all the time, or have the 'slutty' woman die in a horror film. women are punished with sex, or punished for having sex, in things that shjould be about entertainment, for all sorts of reasons, very few of which are anything like they are in real life. the realism of rape doesn't come across in books or in films, it is done for realistic reasons or in a realistic way. it is done to shock or scare people. and i just think its a tragic state when abusing women is done for entertanment, and that it now happens so often people don't even blink about weriting it in their boko or film.

and the problem is, the more that people see these things, the more that they include them in their own work, and the more that people don't care about seeing it. i am not saying people who read martin will rush out and rape people, but i do think that it leads to epople not taking rape as seriously as they should, or to beliving what they have seen are real reasons and the way rape really does happen. rape prosecutions are rarely successful, and i personally do think a part of this is because people have become so carried away by the way that the media and literature presents rape that they don't see the truth in the situation.

sorry, i know this is getting rambly, but for me, if a rape isn't adding to the plot, or the characters, then it should be cut, because i personally think that rape and abuse that is just put in there for a flimsy sort of reason, or just because the writer wants to, is adding to the idea that rape isn't that bad really. and i see this as part of it. it was carless, in my mind, to have so graphic a rape for no valid reason. so, yeah, that's my thing. i think that having rape that doesn't add anything, is adding to the general view that rape isn't that bad, which society seems to have, going by how many rape cases fail. i also think its a lazy way to shock an audience or introduce a plot device. and, frankly, i am sick and tired of reading about women being abused. it happens in real life, but i don't see why i should be exposed to it in the things i am reading for entertainment! at least not to that level. i just think that people have to be more careful with things like this, because it is a serious problem, it is getting worse and i don't think things like this help.

*shrug*

[hedgeknight]

[quote=the_faery_queen]so, yeah, that's my thing. i think that having rape that doesn't add anything, is adding to the general view that rape isn't that bad, which society seems to have, going by how many rape cases fail. i also think its a lazy way to shock an audience or introduce a plot device. and, frankly, i am sick and tired of reading about women being abused. it happens in real life, but i don't see why i should be exposed to it in the things i am reading for entertainment! at least not to that level. i just think that people have to be more careful with things like this, because it is a serious problem, it is getting worse and i don't think things like this help. [quote]

After reading your posts on your feelings about rape and abuse to women in fiction/fantasy, I think you shouldn't read A Feast For Crows. The book is very graphic even though it doesn't have a "rape scene" that I can recall. There are some things that occur, however, one chapter in particular, they literally made me sick to my stomach. And based upon what you've said in your posts, I think reading AFFC would be very upsetting.
Just my 2 cents.
-g-

[the_faery_queen]

well, i dunno. its only rape that bothers me, to be honest. i am fine with everything else. so it depends on what it is!
i know that sounds odd, and some people may find it hypocritcal that i can accept danys having sex, and incest and the rest of it, but the point is, they were all consentual. yeah she was a kid, but kids do have sex! we may not like it, but even today, they do have sex young. and she did chose to, its nonconsentual, violent sex that bothers me. so it really depends on what it is and how graphic it is.

so let me know! tell me what happens and then i can make a better decision. i haven't started it yet, just not in the mood for some reason! but would like to know before i start

and it isn't that those scenes upset me, they anger me and disgust me more than anything.

[backyard_rob]

I completely agree with Anika - in our time, a marriage (or sex) with anyone under a certain age is seen as appalling, yet in years gone by, it was commonplace. In fact, arranged marriages are still taking place in several countries (most notably India). It is interesting that no-one mentions the fact that Sansa was married off by Ned Stark at approximately the same age that Dany was; the difference being that Drogo was (for lack of a better term) sexually active, whereas Joffrey was not. This idea of arranged marriages is a theme that runs throughout the book, and is actually pinnacle to a lot of the plots: think of Sansa and Tyrion, Margaery's three marriages, and especially Lysa Tully and John Arryn - without whose marriage the events of the series would not take place.

On a different note, I completely understand the opinion that ASoIaF is too gratuitous. However, that is what draws me to the series; Martin treats his readers like adults. Personally, I have never read a fantasy book that is so willing to go to such detail of the evil deeds that men can do. Without the descriptions of some of the attrocious acts carried out by some of the characters, Martin would not be able to build his characters (a point which has been argued before). Some people may see this as gratuitous, yet you can read virtually any newspaper in the world and see similar stories happening in real life. Again, I think this is one of Martin's strengths; he has created a fantasy world that is unique, yet shares many of the shortcomings of our own world; this helps us connect with the characters (especially the 'good guys').

[the_faery_queen]

i used to live in swansea great city small, but lovely people miss it!

[AryaUnderfoot]

Originally Posted by backyard_rob

It is interesting that no-one mentions the fact that Sansa was married off by Ned Stark at approximately the same age that Dany was; the difference being that Drogo was (for lack of a better term) sexually active, whereas Joffrey was not.

Sorry to nit-pick, but Sansa was never married to Joffrey. She was betrothed to him, with the intention that they would wait until both she and Joffrey were old enough.

But I follow your point regarding arranged marriages. The difference between the arranged marriages and the consentual sex that happens between youths is that with the marriages there is a goal of reproduction, whereas the pre-marital sex is in pursuit of enjoyment (in most cases).

Honestly, I almost have more of a problem with the arranged marriages than the idea of two kids having sex. Sansa's terror and disgust on her wedding night with Tyrion comes to mind. Yes, it was consentual, but not in the right way. Think of all the young ladies who were shoved into bed with Lord Frey. They weren't exactly given another choice...

[the_faery_queen]

arranged marriages is legalised rape, in my mind. for both sides! (if they both have to consumate it, and don't want to, but are forced to, it's rape) just because they are married, doesn't mean it isn't rape. they didn't have a choice in the marriage after all

not sure who the rapist is, exactly, tho! but its still nonconsentual forced sex, so rape.

awful idea. it really is. freaks me out a little that people are sold in marriage like that, that they still are, without any consent, making them nothing more tahn breeding machines. its just wrong.

and you can see how that sort of treatement messed up cersi! being made to feel that she is nothing but a brood mare, not as good as her male twin, messed her up pretty badly!