The Dragon Has Three Heads

[Tysha]

Originally Posted by Boaz

If Elia sent Aegon away, she did it in total secrecy. We've seen from the Baratheon/Lannisters and Targaryens that the royal family never travels without the Kingsguard. The only example of this seems to be Rhaella's and Viserys' trip to Dragonstone to await the outcome on the Trident. Your point that Elia sent Aegon to the Viper requires the heir of the heir to travel without a White Cloak.

I said ELIA has send him and Elia is DORNISH so why she should trust some White Cloak who is MAD KING's man? She has her own "white cloak" someone Dornish who she and Viper can trust. Second if she wants to do it in secret she can't send a White Cloak with the heir 'cos now everone will know that there is someone important he's guarding...

Originally Posted by Boaz

You say Alleras somehow lit the candle, but none of the acolytes nor Marwyn confirmed this. If he had, don't you think this might have been mentioned in the Pate preface to AFFC? I don't know how often an acolyte spends the night, but I'd think even the densest Pates could connect Alleras' night with the lighting of the candle..

But Alleras was there ALONE and only Marwyn knew that he lit it that day, everyone else just know it BURNS and no one knows when it started to burn... BUT, ok, I agree that it could be as you and YS say as well - that the candle starts to burn when the dragons came to the world!

Originally Posted by Boaz

So is Young Griff actually Young Griff?

I don't know about this young griff, I don't read spoilers!

Originally Posted by Boaz

What about the alcoholic lecherous acolyte that Pate and the rest detest? Could this be Sarella's disguise? By publicly disliking each other, they are not seemingly connected to anyone looking. Alleras is obviously connected to not-Pate, Sam, Marwyn, and others... but not the jerk whose name escapes me.?

I object any idea about boy/girl disguise at the Citadel (or anywhere, while we are talking about grown ups), come on people, it's GEORGE RR MARTIN not some soap opera writer! So I'll ask again(the third time I think) why would a Faceless Man (pate/jaqen) be there at all? What he's doing at the Citadel such a long period of time? (since prologue and until now)

Originally Posted by Boaz

Euron's horn is supposed to have an effect on dragons. What about Targaryens? Will the horn affect them? Euron and his fleet are currently raiding downriver from Oldtown, compared to the overall size of Westeros, Euron and Alleras are in close proximity. Probably nothing comes of this... unless Alleras was looking in the Citadel for clues to the horn.

That's is actually very interesting point! Clues for the horn - great idea!

[Tysha]

Originally Posted by MIDNIGHT

1st, Great theory.

Thanks!

Originally Posted by MIDNIGHT

However as someone already pointed out Alleras has dark (teak, brown, whatever...) skin. Aegon as described in the books has Targaryen traits such as silvery hair and fair skin not dornish traits of dark skin or dark CURLY hair for that matter.

And who exactly has pointed it out? I want names, chapters, page numbers and my medicine for my obsessive compulsive disorder
No, seriously I don't think there IS a description of Aegon as having Targaryen's features, I don't think there is Aegon's description at all.. I think Targeryen's seed is not that strong - look at Jon who is (obviously) Rhaegar's son, after all Targaryens married each other to have those pure Targaryens features.

Originally Posted by MIDNIGHT

(cowers and awaits flaming!!)

LOL Why else to come here if not for nice, long flaming?

[Boaz]

YS, thanks for the info.

Tysha, oh, I agree that a White Cloak in Dorne would have been about as subtle as Robin Williams in front of a camera.

Midnight, we don't flame here anymore. I, Brian passed a law after the Great Chronicles Network Fire of 2004. All posts must now be made of brick or some other fire resistant material as per Code 2841.5a.

[Aegon the Unworthy]

This is from Young Stormlord in the other thread and I must say if this can be verified it kind of settles the discussion a mite....

4. In Sam's chapter he saw two green Sphinx in Oldtown, one has male and one female face. Later he meets Alleras who wears green cloak. And Oberyn also has 6 circles of Messtar colar.

Well well well.....isnt that interesting. I was going to type this long drawn out theory that jaqen was there to kill Aemon because 1) the prologue isnt neccessarily within the time framework of the rest of the story---that does still hold true and 2) this is the first time Aemon is out of the Wall in sometime and if youre the enemy you know theres three heads of the dragon. Dany is the one, and theres only one other Targ youre sure about....or alternately Melissandre wanted her pint of blood for Stannis (and she would know Aemon was leaving the wall)....but I wont post that.

Ill let YS figure out where he read this and then get in line to clap Tysha on the back.

[Young stormlord]

I read this in Sam last chapter in AFFC. And that proves only that Alleras is Sarella (not that Sarella is Aegon!).

Sphinx are also mentioned in ACOK when Tyrion first times go to small council (delivers Tiwins message). This would S=A supporters take as proof but that doesn't mean anything. That could mean only that Cersei is trying to act like a man.

I have one theory myself which I will publish at this thread one of this days. I will give you some ACOK citations that will show you that prophecies could be used in any theory (only ACOK citations because that is only original book (written in English I have).Others are translated to Serbian)

[TK-421]

Who keeps playing that Boy George song??? Cut it out!

Look, Aegon, I think Tysha's theory is good and freshilious (man, I have to stop watching Chris Rock...) and at this point I would rather entertain the idea that Aegon=Alleras than some Young Griff that we have not yet been introduced to.

And, it seems there might a hole in that theory? The Jon Connington connection? Could Wert or Raven or someone else with more knowledge on Connington who is mentionned I think once in the whole series please plug this hole? Who is he really, who was he friends with and where did he go? I seem to recall he was Hand at some point. Isn't there a Stark connection?

Actually, I just remembered something and another hole in the Young Griff theory has formed. If he is Aegon, then Illyrio would know this and he, Varys and Doran would not be putting all there hopes on Dany would they? When Illyrio tells Tyrion about the Dragon at the end of the ADWD preview chapter, it's clear he is talking about Dany. She had the 3 dragons, an army and is the only know Targaryen alive. But, if Aegon were alive, Dany would not the heir to the throne, it would be Aegon. Now, this could a cleverly designed ruse to focus the attention on Dany while putting Aegon on the throne threw the backdoor but that would be a very dangerous game to play. Especially, when the Targaryens would need to convince the other houses of Westeros to some over to their side and defeat the Usurpers. That task is easier today because the wars are bleeding the kingdom dry BUT Dany is proving is proving to be the people's queen (albeit not yet in Westeros) and not some hidden Targ everbody thought was dead.

The more I think of it the less likely I think Aegon is indeed alive.

[Boaz]

TK, sorry I'm not gettin' the Boy George reference. If you don't explain it, I'm gonna hurt you.

TK, I've been wondering about Illyrio's involvement. How many Targaryen heirs does he know about? According to the various hypotheses here, it would seem the Illyrio must have had a hand in the survival and future of all these Targaryens running around.

If Illyrio was using Drogo to put Viserys on the Iron Throne, then why was he sheltering Young Griff or sending Jaqen to guard Alleras? Covering his bases, but it seems that if one Targaryen claimant was successful, then Illyrio would have to kill the other one or to keep him on the side as leverage against the Iron Throne.

It just occured to me that if Illyrio and Doran brokered a marriage between Viserys and Arianne, then Dorne would have actively supported the Dothraki invasion. Doran would have supplied the fleet to bring Drogo over. Okay, so I was a little late on filling in this detail, but this means that Doran is in it up to his eyeballs and that there must be clues for an observant player to use against Dorne... players like Baelish or Olenna.

[TK-421]

Originally Posted by Boaz

TK, sorry I'm not gettin' the Boy George reference. If you don't explain it, I'm gonna hurt you.

You know, cross-dressing, the whole Sarella=Arellas, finding out at the end of The Crying Game, she is reallly a he...I think Saturday Night Live did this brilliant skit on that movie once.

Anyways, yes Doran is up to his eyeballs in it but he would know if Young Griff is indeed Aegon. Could Young Griff be the alias that Quentyn is using while across the Narrow Sea?

Furthermore, I also think that the Queen of Thorns knows and is likely "in" on alot of what Illyrio, Varys and Doran are cooking. She's too smart and well-placed to not be.

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Head asplodey!

If Quentyn is Young Griff what the heck is he doing with Connington, unless theyre all heading to Dany. How many years would the Young Griff have to be in place as an identity for this to work out? Your post 20 year old son cant just pop up without someone noticing? Unless Young Griff has been Aegon this past year and he and Quentyn switched roles for the year so Aegon could go to college, learn magic and save the world? Ouch it hurts....make the bad men stop.

Seriously people I vacillating back and forth more than the current presidential candidates standing on a ceiling fan....could someone please make up my mind for me?

[TK-421]

Aegon is dead. Problem solved.

[Boaz]

TK, when I say "I'm gonna hurt you," the proper response is... "Do you really want to hurt me?"

Olenna and Doran are in cahoots? I dunno 'bout that. This means that she married her grand daughter to the Lannisters and had her grandson become a Kingsguard knowing that when Viserys/Dany/Aegon took over that her grandchildren would be executed.

On the other hand, if you are saying that Illyrio and Varys are playing both the Martells and the Tyrells against each other by secretly telling each that they could be the Targaryens new primary ally, then I would not disagree. But I think the Tyrells have decided on a new course.

[Tysha]

Originally Posted by Young stormlord

And fine theory that is . But in that theory you forgot to give us some real evidences. Give me 2 evidences I cannot beat and I be first to follow you ,Tisha . And I don't want evidences to be some wild guessing, speculation,prophecy or mumbling of old dying man. Everybody can give you above mentioned and make a story. I want something real.

Of course there is no solid evidence for anything, even for L+R=J theory (and that one is probably true) But you have to agree that in my theory everything works out quite well, I mean, there is logic, hints and no nutty things (like Ned throwing Lady Ashara from the tower theory?!! That I saw in some thread lol) At least I have a THEORY, with logic connections, but what Alleras=Sarella theory is good for? Why she is in the Citadel now, why there is so much attantion on her? Why she is with Marwyn, Jaqen and Sam talking about the DRAGONS? I think it's YOU who should build a theory with your Allera=Sarella thingy

Originally Posted by Young stormlord

I actualy agree with Midnight and Aegon. And I add proof: Elya is said to have pale skin in story told by Meera Reed. It is not likely that children of Rhaegar and Elya have dark skin..

And what story is that? In which book, which chapter? Why should Elia who is MARTELL be pale? Martell is Salty-Dornish family ("The salty Dornishmen were lithe and dark, with smooth olive skin and long black hair streaming in the wind" - ASOS - when Tyrion met Oberyn), well Alleras or Aegon or Sarella - they are Martell - with brown-olive skin, black eyes and black hair, no mater if he/she is Oberyn's daughter or Elia's son!

Originally Posted by Young stormlord

In Sam's chapter he saw two green Sphinx in Oldtown, one has male and one female face..

Well well well... isn't that interesting? TWO sphinxs? ONE male and OTHER female, I think you've cut the branch you were sitted on Though personally I can't see the importance of some statue...

Originally Posted by Young stormlord

I have one theory myself which I will publish at this thread one of this days...

Can't wait to read and disprove it
P.S. I have to admit that noticing that Alleras is Sarella backwards is great achievement (I haven't notice this myself...)

[Tysha]

Originally Posted by Aegon the Unworthy

Im just discussing for the sake of discussing.

Same here

Originally Posted by Aegon the Unworthy

Similarity of birth. Both Alleras and Sarella claim to be from a Dornish/Summer Isle mix. That particular combo can not be that common as the two countries do not share a border. Not saying its uncommon just saying its not common. So they share similar coloring. Not definitive but another piece to the puzzle. Aegon would not share this coloring..

Alleras's and Sarella's names AND birth stories are NOT coincidence, Alleras (who IS Aegon) were close friend with Sarella(maybe even her lover? Just an assumption.. But look at Princess Arianne's friends - Drey and Sylva, I think the same was with Alleras and Sarella and that's why he(Alleras/Aegon) have choisen this name and this story when he lefn his Dornish cousin.

Originally Posted by Aegon the Unworthy

Silver hair is harder to hide than a utereus in this case..

There is NO evidence that Aegon has those Targaryen features!!! His mother is Dornish and she is sister to Oberyn (that why the description of Alleras fits to Sarella and Aegon both - they are COUSINS!

Originally Posted by Aegon the Unworthy

Maester Aemon did not have a prophetic fever dream. He admitted to Jon earlier that he did not have the spark for magic even though he studied it. I do not believe him to be playing Jon for a sucker at that point in time...

Maybe he did, maybe he didn't, maybe he just remembered some old prophecy that goes "the sphinx is the riddle". Do you think Aemon Targaryen spoke of some bastard daughter of Dornish prince rather than about a Targaryen heir? Why whould he do that? Why should he care that Sarella spelled her name backwards and went to the Citadel?

Originally Posted by Aegon the Unworthy

jaqen was there to kill Aemon.

Well, there is no logic at all at that statement!!! Wh.. Who..? Why..? I have to take some sedation pills... oh, now I feel better.. So, my friend, you are saying that the Enemy (can you be more precise who might that be exactly?) sending a faceless man to kill the last Targaryen (VERY old man, a maester... and at the WALL.) But what he(Facless man - who wanted to kill all Targaryens?!) is doing at the Citadel now? Beside "Sarella Martell/Sand", Archmaester Marwyn (who is obviously knows that Pate is a Faceless man) and Sam who brings news about dragons and Dany, hmm?

[Aegon the Unworthy]

Originally Posted by Tysha

Same here

Alleras's and Sarella's names AND birth stories are NOT coincidence, Alleras (who IS Aegon) were close friend with Sarella(maybe even her lover? Just an assumption.. But look at Princess Arianne's friends - Drey and Sylva, I think the same was with Alleras and Sarella and that's why he(Alleras/Aegon) have choisen this name and this story when he lefn his Dornish cousin.


There is NO evidence that Aegon has those Targaryen features!!! His mother is Dornish and she is sister to Oberyn (that why the description of Alleras fits to Sarella and Aegon both - they are COUSINS!

Maybe he did, maybe he didn't, maybe he just remembered some old prophecy that goes "the sphinx is the riddle". Do you think Aemon Targaryen spoke of some bastard daughter of Dornish prince rather than about a Targaryen heir? Why whould he do that? Why should he care that Sarella spelled her name backwards and went to the Citadel?


Well, there is no logic at all at that statement!!! Wh.. Who..? Why..? I have to take some sedation pills... oh, now I feel better.. So, my friend, you are saying that the Enemy (can you be more precise who might that be exactly?) sending a faceless man to kill the last Targaryen (VERY old man, a maester... and at the WALL.) But what he(Facless man - who wanted to kill all Targaryens?!) is doing at the Citadel now? Beside "Sarella Martell/Sand", Archmaester Marwyn (who is obviously knows that Pate is a Faceless man) and Sam who brings news about dragons and Dany, hmm?

I get the idea on the similarity between Alleras and Sarellas stories. I get your point. Really I do, I just completely disagree with you. There just seems to be no reason not to change the details significantly unless you couldnt. Aegon would have to come up with another story. I get that Aegon is the son of an olive skinned Dornish and a light skinned Targaryen...that still precludes him from establishing an identity as the son of Dark Skinned Summer Islander and an olive skinned Dornishman. What are you not getting about this? In that same vein Sarella would have to keep that story.

If you want to tell me that Alleras is a cover both Aegon and Sarella use in Oldtown I could accept that. You know Aegon is only seen in a library with his cowl up reading books in the middle of the night and Sarella actually goes to classes....Im not championing that idea because its slightly ridiculous.

As for why Aemon would be worried about what some Dornish princess is doing Im just going to say I dont know. I agree with your meta-thinking that theres a reason he was urgently telling Sam this that Martin was trying to get across. I dont know. Not everything has been revealed yet obviously but Im not prepared to make that assumption.

I speak of an enemy. I do. There is one out there that we havent met yet. There is a force driving the Others that is behind everything. Someone is pulling the strings. Someone is making the calls to try and kill the Old Bear in the first book, or to drive the wildlings south to break the wall (which due to wards on the wall the Others can not do). They are acting with an intelligent malevolence that you cant deny. I assume that everything Aemon, Rhaegar, or even yourself know from prophecies this Other knows. This malevolent person would know that its the three heads of the Dragon which were gonna cause it problems right? It would suspect much like we do that the three heads are tied into the Targ line. Right? It knows of only two Targs out there....It has to assume those two Targs will be two of the three heads. Why not kill one of them to ensure less of problem swallowing Westeros, regardless of the physical infirmities of Aemon he is possibly one of the people that will stop this. Due to the magic wards on the wall Aemon was protected from most of Its magics but when Aemon takes ship to head south he is vulnerable. It may not be able to send wights south that far but It can hire an assassin. So voila Jaqen is hired and sent south to establish an identity and use that to kill an unsuspecting Aemon. You have to realize we have no idea when the Prologue happened except it was before Sam got there. It could be days or weeks.

Wait....who do you think sent Jaqen? Who knows about your Aegon is Alleras idea and wants him dead? The Lannisters obviously arent up to snuff. The Queen of Thorns? Illyrio and Varys we believe are Targ supporters....who do you think is trying to kill him if not a faceless entity behind the Other?

Do I buy that? Nah. I think Jaqen is there for something to do with the return of magic and spying on Marwan or even Alleras. He seems more interested in learning in this role. But I could be wrong.

[Young stormlord]

Originally Posted by Tysha

)But you have to agree that in my theory everything works out quite well, I mean, there is logic, hints and no nutty things (like Ned throwing Lady Ashara from the tower theory?!! That I saw in some thread lol) At least I have a THEORY, with logic connections, but what Alleras=Sarella theory is good for? Why she is in the Citadel now, why there is so much attantion on her? Why she is with Marwyn, Jaqen and Sam talking about the DRAGONS? I think it's YOU who should build a theory with your Allera=Sarella thingy
And what story is that? In which book, which chapter? Why should Elia who is MARTELL be pale? Martell is Salty-Dornish family ("The salty Dornishmen were lithe and dark, with smooth olive skin and long black hair streaming in the wind" - ASOS - when Tyrion met Oberyn), well Alleras or Aegon or Sarella - they are Martell - with brown-olive skin, black eyes and black hair, no mater if he/she is Oberyn's daughter or Elia's son!
Well well well... isn't that interesting? TWO sphinxs? ONE male and OTHER female, I think you've cut the branch you were sitted on Though personally I can't see the importance of some statue...
Can't wait to read and disprove it
P.S. I have to admit that noticing that Alleras is Sarella backwards is great achievement (I haven't notice this myself...)

It is funny how people take only parts that support their theory while ignoring everything else. But I am doing the same so what about that?

Almost everything that Martin wrote has some usage especially when he describes something big such as huge green sphinxes on Citadell entrance.

Acording to Pate's chapter Alleras was really suprised when he heard about dragons. Then boom-paff here comes Leo Tyrell and tells you that Marwin believes in dragons and that glass candle is burning in his (Marwins) quarters.
While we are there... Acolytes have only one chance to lit that candle, and that is when they have finished their chain and already become maesters (right before they get lord to serve). Reason why "Jaquen" is there could be this : Arya have heard blinky(spelling?) and fat man arguing about something in Braavos. Perhaps fat man is "Jaquen". "Jaquen" took key that opens all Citadell doors from Pate?It is posible they were talking about taking some rare books from Citadell. Books about others and dragons.

Now for second acussation
Sarellas reasons for being in Oldtown:
1. She loves that town(AFFC "Captain of guards", Tienna)Perhaps Oberyn meet her mother there (Oldtowh is great merchant town, house Hightower is rich house,protectors of Citadell, that got their money trading)
2. She was forging her's chain when war started (little game of hers. Martell same chapter).
3. Hightowers are rich as Lannisters (Sam's last chapter, AFFC). And guess who's sending reports about them to Martell's.
4. She is at Marwin's room for a reason. Marwin is teaching "higher secrets", magic in looking for a better word. (his staff and mask are valyrian steel! apendix, AFFC) Who knows better about dragon's then man who teaches magic at Citadell? And when you are Oberyn's daughter who is schemming to get back Targaryens on throne you need to know all that is to know about dragons, right? And I guess that Marwin doesn't have much students.

About Elya: she is one year younger than Oberyn. (Martell to Obarra AFFC) Even if they were twins it doesn't prove that they look alike.

How is that for a theory?