Saving a Knight's Charger - Science Fiction Fantasy Chronicles: forums

I, Brian · 22nd October 2003, 10:59 AM

Here's an interesting news item - not least for certain details, which may or may not be of particular interest for those writing fantasy/historical fiction:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3194882.stm

Saving the Suffolk Punch

It is a horse synonymous with England, mentioned by Charles Dickens in his classic novel, David Copperfield.

Over the years, the Suffolk Punch, a heavy horse with a distinctive chestnut coat, has carried men into battle, pulled the plough and hauled logs in the forests.

But mechanisation has left the native breed in decline and there are only 300 left in Britain.

The Rare Breeds Survival Trust (RBST), a charity set up to conserve Britain's native livestock heritage, lists the horse as category 1, "critical".

It is campaigning for funds to preserve the DNA of the breed in its national genetic archive in Devon, which officially opened in September.

The RBST, based at the National Agricultural Centre in Stoneleigh Park, Warwickshire, aims to collect and store semen from all the native rare breeds in Britain - more than 70 equines, cattle, goats, pigs, sheep and poultry.

Insurance policy

The genetic material will be stored "in perpetuity" and will not be touched unless one of the breeds suffers a catastrophe, says Susie Craddock of the RBST.

Over the course of three to five years, it hopes to take samples from 25 stallions of 12 breeds, the most urgent being the Suffolk Punch; the Eriskay Pony of the Western Isles of Scotland; and the Cleveland Bay, native to North Yorkshire.

However, the process costs more than £2,000 per horse and so far only six stallions have been banked. The Suffolk Horse Society in Woodbridge, Suffolk, is helping with the scheme. Administrative secretary Amanda Hillier says the society, another registered charity, tries to encourage standard breeding by promoting the horse as a desirable animal.

With its stocky build and willing temperament, it has found a niche in the leisure industry and is in demand as a riding horse when crossed with the thoroughbred.

But with only 18 registered licensed Suffolk Punch stallions in the studbook, there is a need to preserve DNA samples as a last resort. "It's sad to let the expertise and source of power disappear because we never know when we might need them again," says Hillier. "It's an insurance policy for the future."

littlemissattitude · 22nd October 2003, 07:48 PM

This may be a stupid question, but why are they only storing semen? Shouldn't they be storing eggs as well? Unless they are projecting that females of the breed will survive but not male, won't they need both in case they decide they need to reintroduce the species?

If they had both, then they could do in vitro fertilization and then implant the embryo into a horse of another breed. However, if they only have the sperm, but there are no females of the breed left, or if the females that are left are unable to breed for some reason, then all they will be able to produce is a hybrid.

Just wondered.

dwndrgn · 22nd October 2003, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I, Brian

With its stocky build and willing temperament, it has found a niche in the leisure industry and is in demand as a riding horse when crossed with the thoroughbred.

It looks like they want to preserve the DNA (for crossbreeding) but not the actual breed itself. Although, as they say this is for, if some catastrophe occurs and they all die out, they will be gone as a distinct breed with or without the semen.

I, Brian · 22nd October 2003, 10:58 PM

Good points - I had thought it was simply that they had too few breeding males...but it does sound daft that they're not taking eggs - or any other X chromosome material. That's not cricket.

Redhawk · 9th September 2006, 09:28 PM

I know this is an old original post...but since I love Horses, as much as I do reading and writing...I thought I'd post it just the same.

While this information (from Wikipedia) is probably fairly accurate over all, I would not discard that the Shire draft horse was one of the more popular heavy draft breeds used in the Middle Ages as a riding horse for Knights wearing heavy armor.

The Friesian would have been a very likely breed too, as they have more agility than the average Shire or Suffolk Punch, but still have a fair amount of size, weight and strength to carry all that pot metal riding on top. Remember too often the horse had armor of its own to carry in addition to the rider!

My personal studies and thoughts are that because heavy horse cost a fair amount of money to start with (as echoed by Wikipedia) and they also cost a LOT comparatively to feed, they were not the “only” warhorses! More than likely there were more "light horse" and mid-weight horse used by those fighting than "heavy horse" due to the cost of purchase/breeding and raising such animals and subsequent feeding of them on what might be a long trip or campaign to war.

Why the individuals working to save the Suffolk Punch would not harvest or would fail to mention the harvesting of eggs, is a crap shoot.

Colorado State University developed a technique for collecting an egg (oocyte) from a given mare and transfering it to a recipient as early as 1999. The first batch of successful births from frozen eggs happened in 2001 with the initial work being done in 2000. If I remember correctly the success rate is about 30-50% for eggs being alive when thawed in current efforts of this nature.

destrier
A destrier is a historical term for a knight's war horse. The term destrier is derived from the Vulgar Latin 'dextrarius,' meaning right-hand.
There are many theories as to what "type" and size destriers attained, though it now seems clear they were not enormous draft types. Equestrian statues in Italy suggest a "Spanish" style of horse that today would be referred to as Baroque. Modern attempts to reproduce destriers usually involve crossing a lighter, more athletic horse with something heavier. One example is the "Spanish Norman," bred by crossing a Percheron with an Andalusian. Modern estimates put the heights at no more than 16 hands, though with a strong and heavy physique.
Northern European depictions seem to suggest a heavy quarterhorse. The Friesian horse, 14.2 to 17 hands high, is is said to have been used as destrier in medieval times in Northern Europe. Due to its heavy, muscular physique today's Friesian is not suited to aerobic sports like all-out racing, but it is an excellent dressage and student horse famous for its imposing presence and spectacular trot. When harnesses fell out of use, Andalusian blood was added to the Friesian lighten its weight.
A good destrier was expensive. 7th century Salic law gives a price of 12 solidi as weregild, or reparational payment, for a war horse, compared to 3 solidi for a sound mare or 1 solidus for a cow. In later centuries destriers became even more expensive: the average value of the horses of a company of 22 knights and squires in the county of Flanders in 1297 compares to the price of seven normal coursers (J. de St. Genois, Inventoire analytique des chartes de comtes de Flandres, Ghent, 1843-1846). The price of these destriers varied between 20 and 300 livres parisis (parisian pounds), compared to 5 to 12 livres for a normal courser. Horses of kings and important nobles could be even more expensive. Mounted knights would take a number of horses campainging, different horses and breeds for seperate tasks. A destrier fit for battle would be properly trained as well as of a breed physically capable of carrying a mounted soldier in battle kit.

An thats my history drivel for today...

Rosemary · 9th September 2006, 09:52 PM

I've always wanted a horse of my own...So thanks for the info about the Suffolk Punch...it would be such a same to lose such a lovely breed of horse.

And Redhawk, thanks for reminding me of the destriers...wonderful history, as too with so many other breeds

Redhawk · 10th September 2006, 06:13 PM

You be welcome! My goal is to get a Rocky Mountain. Horse...a bit on the pricey side, but they are gaited and do a splendid 4-beat that can reach 15 to 20 mph...they CAN trot but if you sit correctly will do the gait and you don't need to post on it...good for those of us with knee, hip, back issues, and they have the temperament (mostly) of a large friendly dog...they like people!

I want one of YOUR saddles...the best dang all around use I've ever sat on...Australian Cavalry!
happy trails!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rosemary

I've always wanted a horse of my own...So thanks for the info about the Suffolk Punch...it would be such a same to lose such a lovely breed of horse.

And Redhawk, thanks for reminding me of the destriers...wonderful history, as too with so many other breeds

Rosemary · 10th September 2006, 07:34 PM

I agree, the saddles here are very good...

You might like to take a peek at this site - http://www.walerhorse.com/whsa/

Redhawk · 12th September 2006, 04:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rosemary

I agree, the saddles here are very good...

You might like to take a peek at this site - http://www.walerhorse.com/whsa/

Wow...some really nice looking horses...for sale...those two bays...too bad I'm in the States...lovely youngsters!
Thanks for sharing...I'd not see such uniquely diverse "types" of the Waler Breed before...only the heavier more "course" types.

pagun · 2nd March 2007, 10:51 AM

Having owned a Suffolk Punch stallion, I believe I have the answer as to why they are saving the semen and not the eggs. Basically, it is much more difficult to keep a stallion than a mare or a gelding. Horses are beasts of burden and you don't want his nuts driving him nuts and spilling your burdens or possibly killing you every time a lovely lady gallops by. The Suffolk Punch is a great tribute to the horsemen of Suffolk and Norfolk who through selective breeding created the draft horse with the best disposition, best feet, fastest walking gait most ideal for farming, and, they eat only half as much as the other four major breeds of heavy horses. The Suffolk Punch is doing rather well in America, with several times as many head as in England. While the Percheron, Shire, Belgian, and Clydesdale did indeed carry knights, the Suffolk Punch is thought to have been used mainly for pulling wagons and farm implements. It was isolated in its home region by the fens and salt water on three sides and wasn't much exported until the 1930's, and then BOOM- the tractors showed up and these magnificent animals almost went extinct by the 1960's. All the heavy horses seem to have originated in Belgium, and the Suffolk Punch also likely descends from the horses of the Vikings. Don't worry ladies, stallions are not 'in charge' of the herd, the lead mare is, and she is usually an older, wiser one.

Redhawk · 4th May 2007, 06:02 PM

Accurate, and interesting information! I'll bet you're right about the stallions vs. the mares too. Unless the horse has a good temper to start and has had good training for ground manners...the boys with the toys can be a bundle...and in this case...a rather LARGE bundle of ooops waiting to explode! Excellent point!

I'm also glad to read that there are more of this breed here in the States. I though there were, but we have so many more Purcherons here in PA...at least locally.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pagun

Having owned a Suffolk Punch stallion, I believe I have the answer as to why they are saving the semen and not the eggs. Basically, it is much more difficult to keep a stallion than a mare or a gelding. Horses are beasts of burden and you don't want his nuts driving him nuts and spilling your burdens or possibly killing you every time a lovely lady gallops by. The Suffolk Punch is a great tribute to the horsemen of Suffolk and Norfolk who through selective breeding created the draft horse with the best disposition, best feet, fastest walking gait most ideal for farming, and, they eat only half as much as the other four major breeds of heavy horses. The Suffolk Punch is doing rather well in America, with several times as many head as in England. While the Percheron, Shire, Belgian, and Clydesdale did indeed carry knights, the Suffolk Punch is thought to have been used mainly for pulling wagons and farm implements. It was isolated in its home region by the fens and salt water on three sides and wasn't much exported until the 1930's, and then BOOM- the tractors showed up and these magnificent animals almost went extinct by the 1960's. All the heavy horses seem to have originated in Belgium, and the Suffolk Punch also likely descends from the horses of the Vikings. Don't worry ladies, stallions are not 'in charge' of the herd, the lead mare is, and she is usually an older, wiser one.

22nd October 2003, 10:59 AM	#1 (permalink)
I, Brian Admin and Tea-boy Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 5,603 Blog Entries: 1	Saving a Knight's Charger Here's an interesting news item - not least for certain details, which may or may not be of particular interest for those writing fantasy/historical fiction: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3194882.stm Saving the Suffolk Punch It is a horse synonymous with England, mentioned by Charles Dickens in his classic novel, David Copperfield. Over the years, the Suffolk Punch, a heavy horse with a distinctive chestnut coat, has carried men into battle, pulled the plough and hauled logs in the forests. But mechanisation has left the native breed in decline and there are only 300 left in Britain. The Rare Breeds Survival Trust (RBST), a charity set up to conserve Britain's native livestock heritage, lists the horse as category 1, "critical". It is campaigning for funds to preserve the DNA of the breed in its national genetic archive in Devon, which officially opened in September. The RBST, based at the National Agricultural Centre in Stoneleigh Park, Warwickshire, aims to collect and store semen from all the native rare breeds in Britain - more than 70 equines, cattle, goats, pigs, sheep and poultry. Insurance policy The genetic material will be stored "in perpetuity" and will not be touched unless one of the breeds suffers a catastrophe, says Susie Craddock of the RBST. Over the course of three to five years, it hopes to take samples from 25 stallions of 12 breeds, the most urgent being the Suffolk Punch; the Eriskay Pony of the Western Isles of Scotland; and the Cleveland Bay, native to North Yorkshire. However, the process costs more than £2,000 per horse and so far only six stallions have been banked. The Suffolk Horse Society in Woodbridge, Suffolk, is helping with the scheme. Administrative secretary Amanda Hillier says the society, another registered charity, tries to encourage standard breeding by promoting the horse as a desirable animal. With its stocky build and willing temperament, it has found a niche in the leisure industry and is in demand as a riding horse when crossed with the thoroughbred. But with only 18 registered licensed Suffolk Punch stallions in the studbook, there is a need to preserve DNA samples as a last resort. "It's sad to let the expertise and source of power disappear because we never know when we might need them again," says Hillier. "It's an insurance policy for the future." Attached Thumbnails

9th September 2006, 09:28 PM	#5 (permalink)
Redhawk Always and never changing Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 143	Re: Saving a Knight's Charger I know this is an old original post...but since I love Horses, as much as I do reading and writing...I thought I'd post it just the same. While this information (from Wikipedia) is probably fairly accurate over all, I would not discard that the Shire draft horse was one of the more popular heavy draft breeds used in the Middle Ages as a riding horse for Knights wearing heavy armor. The Friesian would have been a very likely breed too, as they have more agility than the average Shire or Suffolk Punch, but still have a fair amount of size, weight and strength to carry all that pot metal riding on top. Remember too often the horse had armor of its own to carry in addition to the rider! My personal studies and thoughts are that because heavy horse cost a fair amount of money to start with (as echoed by Wikipedia) and they also cost a LOT comparatively to feed, they were not the “only” warhorses! More than likely there were more "light horse" and mid-weight horse used by those fighting than "heavy horse" due to the cost of purchase/breeding and raising such animals and subsequent feeding of them on what might be a long trip or campaign to war. Why the individuals working to save the Suffolk Punch would not harvest or would fail to mention the harvesting of eggs, is a crap shoot. Colorado State University developed a technique for collecting an egg (oocyte) from a given mare and transfering it to a recipient as early as 1999. The first batch of successful births from frozen eggs happened in 2001 with the initial work being done in 2000. If I remember correctly the success rate is about 30-50% for eggs being alive when thawed in current efforts of this nature. destrier A destrier is a historical term for a knight's war horse. The term destrier is derived from the Vulgar Latin 'dextrarius,' meaning right-hand. There are many theories as to what "type" and size destriers attained, though it now seems clear they were not enormous draft types. Equestrian statues in Italy suggest a "Spanish" style of horse that today would be referred to as Baroque. Modern attempts to reproduce destriers usually involve crossing a lighter, more athletic horse with something heavier. One example is the "Spanish Norman," bred by crossing a Percheron with an Andalusian. Modern estimates put the heights at no more than 16 hands, though with a strong and heavy physique. Northern European depictions seem to suggest a heavy quarterhorse. The Friesian horse, 14.2 to 17 hands high, is is said to have been used as destrier in medieval times in Northern Europe. Due to its heavy, muscular physique today's Friesian is not suited to aerobic sports like all-out racing, but it is an excellent dressage and student horse famous for its imposing presence and spectacular trot. When harnesses fell out of use, Andalusian blood was added to the Friesian lighten its weight. A good destrier was expensive. 7th century Salic law gives a price of 12 solidi as weregild, or reparational payment, for a war horse, compared to 3 solidi for a sound mare or 1 solidus for a cow. In later centuries destriers became even more expensive: the average value of the horses of a company of 22 knights and squires in the county of Flanders in 1297 compares to the price of seven normal coursers (J. de St. Genois, Inventoire analytique des chartes de comtes de Flandres, Ghent, 1843-1846). The price of these destriers varied between 20 and 300 livres parisis (parisian pounds), compared to 5 to 12 livres for a normal courser. Horses of kings and important nobles could be even more expensive. Mounted knights would take a number of horses campainging, different horses and breeds for seperate tasks. A destrier fit for battle would be properly trained as well as of a breed physically capable of carrying a mounted soldier in battle kit. An thats my history drivel for today...

9th September 2006, 09:52 PM	#6 (permalink)
Rosemary The Wicked Sword Maiden Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 3,524 Blog Entries: 20	Re: Saving a Knight's Charger I've always wanted a horse of my own...So thanks for the info about the Suffolk Punch...it would be such a same to lose such a lovely breed of horse. And Redhawk, thanks for reminding me of the destriers...wonderful history, as too with so many other breeds

10th September 2006, 07:34 PM	#8 (permalink)
Rosemary The Wicked Sword Maiden Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 3,524 Blog Entries: 20	Re: Saving a Knight's Charger I agree, the saddles here are very good... You might like to take a peek at this site - http://www.walerhorse.com/whsa/

2nd March 2007, 10:51 AM	#10 (permalink)
pagun Registered User Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 1	Re: Saving a Knight's Charger Having owned a Suffolk Punch stallion, I believe I have the answer as to why they are saving the semen and not the eggs. Basically, it is much more difficult to keep a stallion than a mare or a gelding. Horses are beasts of burden and you don't want his nuts driving him nuts and spilling your burdens or possibly killing you every time a lovely lady gallops by. The Suffolk Punch is a great tribute to the horsemen of Suffolk and Norfolk who through selective breeding created the draft horse with the best disposition, best feet, fastest walking gait most ideal for farming, and, they eat only half as much as the other four major breeds of heavy horses. The Suffolk Punch is doing rather well in America, with several times as many head as in England. While the Percheron, Shire, Belgian, and Clydesdale did indeed carry knights, the Suffolk Punch is thought to have been used mainly for pulling wagons and farm implements. It was isolated in its home region by the fens and salt water on three sides and wasn't much exported until the 1930's, and then BOOM- the tractors showed up and these magnificent animals almost went extinct by the 1960's. All the heavy horses seem to have originated in Belgium, and the Suffolk Punch also likely descends from the horses of the Vikings. Don't worry ladies, stallions are not 'in charge' of the herd, the lead mare is, and she is usually an older, wiser one.

22nd October 2003, 07:48 PM	#2 (permalink)
littlemissattitude Super Moderator Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 3,506 Blog Entries: 9	This may be a stupid question, but why are they only storing semen? Shouldn't they be storing eggs as well? Unless they are projecting that females of the breed will survive but not male, won't they need both in case they decide they need to reintroduce the species? If they had both, then they could do in vitro fertilization and then implant the embryo into a horse of another breed. However, if they only have the sperm, but there are no females of the breed left, or if the females that are left are unable to breed for some reason, then all they will be able to produce is a hybrid. Just wondered.

22nd October 2003, 10:58 PM	#4 (permalink)
I, Brian Admin and Tea-boy Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 5,603 Blog Entries: 1	Good points - I had thought it was simply that they had too few breeding males...but it does sound daft that they're not taking eggs - or any other X chromosome material. That's not cricket.

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