C. L. Moore

[Teresa Edgerton]

I suppose you could call her Northwest Smith stories Science Fantasy rather than Science Fiction, since they have a sword-and-sorcery feel even though taking place on another planet and mentioning spaceships and ray guns. Sort of like Flash Gordon with more literary value. Or Indiana Jones in Outer Space. (It's pretty obvious that Indie has quite a bit of N.W. in him.)

This thread was inspired by the fact that I am currently reading a collection called The Best of C. L. Moore. I just finished "Shambleau" and "Black Thirst" (the former being one I've read before) and I'm now moving on to Jirel of Joiry.

Her stories are colorful and fun, but it seems that the lady had an unnaturally intense aversion to black slime.

[Teresa Edgerton]

What, no interest in C. L. Moore? I was certain that at least knivesout (student of the classics that he is) would have something to impart, and that Gollum would stop by with a few fascinating tidbits about the life of Catherine Moore, and a link or two to sites where we can read her work online for free.

This silence comes as a distinct shock.

[GOLLUM]

Well actually Kelpie I only just spotted this thread. I posted something about Moore on the Fritz Leiber thread a couple of months ago but received no response other than from Knivesout who had not read her stuff then due to being unable to locate a copy of her stuff, although this may have changed, I'm sure he'll post something on this if it has..

I've mainly read the Jirel of Joiry tales and here's my snippet of my post on her from that other thread when we were discussing the theme of S&S:

I'd also like to make mention of Catherine L. Moore's Jirel of Joiry series primarily featuring sword-wielding heroine Jirel of dark ages Europe. Not greatly noted for her blinding intellect Jirel still manages to vanquish her monstrous opponents and to my knowledge is basically the precursor to the more modern day sword-wielding heroines in Red Sonja, Xena etc.. For me these S&S stories are close to a par with Howard's Conan tales and better in some cases. An enjoyable read.

I do have other infomration on CL Moore so I'll post that soon.

[GOLLUM]

Here's a short bio of the author for those interested:

Catherine Lucille Moore was born in Indianapolis, Indiana in 1911, and from an early age proved to be a prolific storyteller. Moore discovered science fiction through the pulp magazine Amazing Stories. In 1933 she made her first story sale with “Shambleau,” to Weird Tales Magazine, where it ran as the lead in the November issue. “Shambleau” was an immediate success, winning praise from the likes of HP Lovecraft. Moore became a mainstay of Weird Tales throughout the 1930s, turning out another fourteen more stories.

In 1940 she married science fiction writer Henry Kuttner which marked the start of a colaboration between the pair spending time in New York. Moore and Kuttner also wrote under several non de plumes of which Lewis Padgett and Keith Hammond are the best known.

Moore and Kuttner moved back to Kuttner’s origins in California in 1956 to earn degrees and investigate the world of screenwriting. They broke into scriptwriting for both radio and television, but sadly Kuttner died from a heart attack in 1958. Moore continued to work, writing scripts for television shows like 77 Sunset Strip branching into mystery but never again into SF.

She remarried in 1963 to Thomas Reggie, and spent the rest of her life in Hollywood before passing away in 1987 from Alzeheimer's disease. In 1981 she was presented with the World Fantasy Award for Lifetime Achievement, and in 1998 she was inducted into the Science Fiction and Fantasy Hall Of Fame.

[Teresa Edgerton]

Thanks, Gollum. I knew some of this, but I didn't know that her time in Hollywood involved writing for shows I might have seen (though admittedly my memories of 77 Sunset Strip are very blurred).

I didn't like Jirel as much as Northwest, but I need to read more than the one story before I make up my mind about that. Yet already I agree with you about her mental capacity; she certainly didn't appear to be an intellectual giant in "The Black God's Kiss."

[fungi from Yuggoth]

Sorry. Just spotted this thread.

As a Sword and Sorcery fan I have, of course, read CL Moore. Yes, I believe she was an extremely important, though largely forgotten, influence on modern fantasy and SF. At a time when the terms 'Sword and Sorcery' and 'Space Opera' were not even coined, Moore was a major influence upon the genres to be. There are echoes of Jirel of Joiry in many future female protags in fantasy, and the Northwest Smith stories would go on to become major cornerstones of much SF, both in book and film. As a female writer in an otherwise totally male-dominated field she stood as icon to later writers such as Brackett and LeGuin. That alone should be enough to cement her legacy.

As a writer in her own right, however, Moore was a little clunky in style and plot development. As most weird writers at that time (CAS being an obvious example) Moore excelled in depictions of the unknown, but largely fell flat on the more mundane intricacies of characterization. Most of her stories seemed geared toward placing Jirel or Smith in a strange landscape against a strange foe and subsequently having them fight their way out. Like much pulp at the time, it suffers from repetetive plotting and shallowness. I suppose you could call her a more imaginative version of RE Howard/ER Burroughs, though that would be something of a gross generalization. I love Moore's work regardless, but it's not something I'd like to read too much of at a time.

Incidentally:

Not greatly noted for her blinding intellect Jirel still manages to vanquish her monstrous opponents and to my knowledge is basically the precursor to the more modern day sword-wielding heroines in Red Sonja, Xena etc.

Red Sonja was actually a character created by RE Howard (called Red Sonya) written about the same time as Moore's work. However, as I'm aware, Red Sonya was only in one story, an historical piece where she played a female warrior in 16th century Austria: 'The Shadow of the Vulture.' Her later incarnation was very much a result of comics seizing upon the resurgence of Howard's popularity in the 60s/70s.

Another firece female protag, Dark Agnes, was also written around this time. Female protagonists seem to have mostly found fertile ground in the pulps of the thirties, and Moore was undoubtedly at the forefront.

[GOLLUM]

Originally Posted by fungi from Yuggoth

I suppose you could call her a more imaginative version of RE Howard/ER Burroughs, though that would be something of a gross generalization. I love Moore's work regardless, but it's not something I'd like to read too much of at a time.

Red Sonja was actually a character created by RE Howard (called Red Sonya) written about the same time as Moore's work. However, as I'm aware, Red Sonya was only in one story, an historical piece where she played a female warrior in 16th century Austria: 'The Shadow of the Vulture.' Her later incarnation was very much a result of comics seizing upon the resurgence of Howard's popularity in the 60s/70s.

Another firece female protag, Dark Agnes, was also written around this time. Female protagonists seem to have mostly found fertile ground in the pulps of the thirties, and Moore was undoubtedly at the forefront.

Well I wasn't intending to say that she was superior to Howard who remains my No 1. S&S author in terms of sheer storytelling ability but a few of her stories I found at least on a par or better than him.

I've read the original Red Sonya tale by Howard but compared to the more modern versions in Red Sonja it's only fairly loosely based on that character which is probably why I was not making a direct connection there. Your 100% correct in saying that Red Sonja was encouraged on the back of a resurgence of Howard popularity, especially when one considers that the people behind Red Sonja like Roy Thomas were also into promoting new Howard inspired spin offs and I assume deliberately placed her into Conan's Hyborian Age.

[GOLLUM]

Originally Posted by fungi from Yuggoth

Another firece female protag, Dark Agnes, was also written around this time. Female protagonists seem to have mostly found fertile ground in the pulps of the thirties, and Moore was undoubtedly at the forefront.

I assume you're talking about Howard's time here as Howard was the orginal creator of Dark Agnes albeit the works were only published after his death.

Dark Agnes de Chastillon featued in 2 REH stories: Sword Woman and Blades for France, the latter being a better offering. A third story Mistress of Death was apparently completed after REH's death and I've not read this but understand it to be problematic in the sense that it was completed by Gerald Page and thus unsusprisingly differs from REH's style. The stories of Red Agnes are OK but nothing remarkable for me, I think of the Pulp era, Jirel Of Joiry was the best female lead/heroine of this time but you may well know of others that surpass her.

[Foxbat]

I've never read any of Moore's stuff but it certainly sounds interesting. Just a point of interest regarding REH

Dark Agnes de Chastillon featued in 2 REH stories: Sword Woman and Blades for France

Funnily enough a local 14th or 15th century heroine held Dunbar Castle (Scotland) from the English for fifteen months before they gave up and went home. She was a Frenchwoman known locally as Black Agnes. Her ghost is still said to stalk the supposed secret tunnels running under the town.

I wonder if she was a source of inspiration?

[GOLLUM]

Originally Posted by Foxbat

I've never read any of Moore's stuff but it certainly sounds interesting. Just a point of interest regarding REH



Funnily enough a local 14th or 15th century heroine held Dunbar Castle (Scotland) from the English for fifteen months before they gave up and went home. She was a Frenchwoman known locally as Black Agnes. Her ghost is still said to stalk the supposed secret tunnels running under the town.

I wonder if she was a source of inspiration?

HMMM.. now that's interesting as Howard was known to be something of a history buff. Unfortunately none of my reasearch into REH's biography gleaned any direct influence on who Agnes may have been based on, although he certainly had a healthy respect for women and its been in part postulated that his one love the highly strong willed Novalyne Price may have been an inspiration although this is unsubstantiated as some of his writngs show a definite like for strong female heroines even before this period. Still it's a tantalizing thought all the same and not one I was aware of, so thanks...

[K. Riehl]

Centipede Press has issued a enormous collection Moore and Kuttner titled
Two-Handed Engine. The $250 limited edition sold out and a much more affordable edition is now available. I believe it's around 900 pages and contains 37 stories. It should run about $25-$35. I started reading science fiction by reading the anthology collections of the 40's and 50's and I found that the stories that stuck in my mind always turned out to be Kuttner, Moore or Padgett. I highly recommend both authors.

[j. d. worthington]

Nice to see this thread bumped (even though it's been quite a while ... long enough I hadn't even seen it!); and thanks for the information on the book.

Yes, Catherine L. Moore was a major influence in science fiction, and no small one in fantasy, for some years. I do know that Howard thought highly of her work, and Jirel was an homage to Howard's own Kull and Conan stories, and one which he liked (at least, what he saw of them). Some of her Jirel stories seem a shade too drawn-out now and again to me, but that's a very minor criticism. And the work she and Kuttner did together remain among the jewels of Golden Age sf, poignant and lyrical and thought-provoking. Her work is more than due for a revival....

[Blue Tyson]

Originally Posted by GOLLUM

especially when one considers that the people behind Red Sonja like Roy Thomas were also into promoting new Howard inspired spin offs and I assume deliberately placed her into Conan's Hyborian Age.

Yes, he did. He actually writes about this in the recent comic collection, The Song of Red Sonja.

Oh, and The Red Sonya story, The Shadow of the Vulture, is here :-

http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks06/0608101.txt

[HardScienceFan]

Whoa,one of the forgotten classic is DOOMSDAY MORNING!!
Thanx to your thread I'll probably start on the JUDGMENT NIGHT collection.

She was one heck of a writer<

[J-Sun]

22nd January 2007, 05:07 AM #13 (permalink)
Blue Tyson

Wow. First person from another board I've recognized on this one.

Anyway - I'm bumping this after coming to it via the underrated vintage thread.

I don't really have much to say, other than that I love Moore's writing. In addition to her impact on S&S (Jirel, etc.) and space opera (many things, including the brilliant Judgment Night) she also wrote the renowned time travel tale "Vintage Season". The stuff in The Best of C.L. Moore, such as "No Woman Born", is fantastic. And I apparently like the Jirel stuff (and Northwest Smith stuff) more than many, as I often hear equivocations in others' praise of them. Perhaps this is because I only peripherally know of Weird Tales and all its disciples and come to her more from a Lewis Padgett/Astounding angle - I never compare her to Howard because I've yet to read Howard, for instance. Another strain of her writing to note are the collaborations with Kuttner in Startling even if they aren't often credited as collaborations and aren't always from Startling. For instance, The Earth's Last Citadel (both credited, published in Argosy) and The Masks of Circe, The Time Axis, The Well of the Worlds, The Portal in the Picture, Valley of the Flame, The Dark World. (It's hard to separate her and Kuttner.)

She could do plot and characterization well and was rich with ideas, but she was especially skilled at descriptive passages that could be kind of ethereally strange and dreamlike, but rock-hard in their impact and memorability.

I figured I'd bump this so people who have more to contribute might notice it and do so and also to note that Planet Stories (the book publisher) has Jirel and Northwest back in print so interested people might look into that and, of course, you can always look for her stuff used.