[SPOILERS] AFfC General Discussion

[mad1]

hi to all,

new here so bare with me, after reading the book which l loved,

l've got a theory about ceresi's death by the VALONQAR.

I think she has picked the wrong brother (tyrion)

l have a feeling it will jaime wrapping his hands around her sweet neck

after catching her in someone else's bed.

l bloody well hope so.

[Sword of the Morning]

Originally Posted by mad1

hi to all,

l've got a theory about ceresi's death by the VALONQAR.
I think she has picked the wrong brother (tyrion)
l have a feeling it will jaime wrapping his hands around her sweet neck
after catching her in someone else's bed.
l bloody well hope so.

Not to say I told you so to the group, But I did say that in about those words.

[RWHamel]

Ah, the younger Brother.

1. There's Tyrion, this is Cersei's pick.

2. Then there's Jaime, certainly a good prospect.

3. But then there's Stannis, the younger brother of Robert. He would certainly like to get his hands around Cersei's neck.

4. Then there's Sandor, the younger brother to Gregor. Since Gregor will most likely end up Cersei's champion in trial by combat of a church run trial, and Sandor would be my pick if I was the High Septon. This will be a two for, since Sandor is a "younger brother" of the Quiet Island.

5. Then there's Jon the younger brother to Robb. He also could be the younger brother to Rhaenys and Aegon. Also, he is a "younger brother" in the Brotherhood of the Night's Watch.

etc., etc.

It's raining younger brothers

[Dolorous Edd]

Originally Posted by mad1

hi to all,

new here so bare with me, after reading the book which l loved,

l've got a theory about ceresi's death by the VALONQAR.

I think she has picked the wrong brother (tyrion)

l have a feeling it will jaime wrapping his hands around her sweet neck

after catching her in someone else's bed.

l bloody well hope so.

Good point, and jaime IS younger is he not? Didn't cersei once say that they had always been close, even since birth, that she had in fact come out with jaime holding onto her foot?

[Raven]

So much to reply to... in the interests of honesty, I must confess I missed most of these myself.

First, Sandor. In addition to all the other clues already mentioned (the dog, Stranger, the limp, 'at rest'), there's the scarf thing. George makes a point out of showing that the scarf can conceal a missing ear on another brother. This kind of clinches the deal, for me. If it can hide a missing ear, it can hide Sandor's face.

Second, Pate. The Faceless Man is Jaqen. Read the description of the Alchemist again. It's almost word-for-word the description of Jaqen's 'new' face, the one he takes on when he leaves Arya in Harrenhal. And now he's alone with Sam... heehee. Better hope he's on Sam's side.

Third, did anyone else get the Sarella/Alleras thing? The Sphinx? 'I am no lord's son'?

Last, the maps. George said at the Glasgow signing that these were the publisher's decision, and it was done to follow the US edition. So presumably the US edition will have the same poor maps.

[Lord of Winterfell]

Nope. Apparently the US version has better maps.

[Boaz]

Finished.

Where to start... well, I've also read all of the threads regarding AFFC here and I'll post on this thread because I desire to comment on so different topics.

1. I may be slow, but it finally occurred to me that each book begins (and ASOS ends) with a POV of a doomed man. Nice consistency.

2. I've counted 24 POVs in the four books so far... This allows the story to be told in great breadth and in specifics also.

3. Doran is a thinker, but also knows how to keep a secret... Arianne was going to be married to Viserys if Doran had anything to say about it.

4. Marwyn, the mage of Oldtown, Victarion Greyjoy, and Quentyn Martell are on a race to win Danaerys Targaryen to their side.

5. Pate, the novice, has been replaced by an imposter. A faceless man, a wizard, or has he been reborn by R'hllor?

6. What did Brienne shout? Arya, Yes, Jaime, Renly, Stannis, or Kingslayer are all possibilities. What if Stoneheart's camp came under attack just as Brienne, Pod, and Hyle are being hanged? What if the attack was by Randyll Tarly? What if the attack was by Nymeria and her pack?

7. I believe I led the charge in the "Catelyn is a despicable witch" comments before AFFC. I hate her more than ever.

8. Someone commented how, after the opening Stark chapters, we came around to like Tyrion and Jaime in their POVs, but that Cersei's POV did nothing to endear her to the readers. I completely agree. She is Macbeth and Lady Macbeth rolled into one. She is an evil, adulterous, manipulating, vindictive, beautiful, torturous, cruel, grasping, vain, self-absobed, incestuous, lying, murdering, godless, bisexual, stealing, semi-intelligent, uncaring, megalomaniacal, and concieted Jezebel. She is a horrifying mother for her sweet Tommen. And I loved reading her POV.

When she met with Ned in the Godswood of KL, there was a moment when she was pitiable. But the moment is gone. I am hoping for the most undignified and insulting of deaths for her.

Her immoral acts are starting to weigh on her conscience. This increases her paranoia. She has no clue how to relate to the people and get them to feel compassion for her, she only knows how to make them fear and hate her. This increases her paranoia. Her first born was murdered before her eyes, her daughter was taken away, her father was murdered, her brother/lover has not supported her, and she knows that she is woefully ignorant of the history of the throne she is attempting to rule. This increases her paranoia.

She's not crazy. Not yet. But she is out of control. No one can curb her desires nor her actions. Her cruelty is now greater and her level of participation in cruel acts is more than she bargained for.

I love how she despised Aerys and Robert, yet she is becoming like them. She is paranoid and cruel like Aerys. She is frustrated and vexed, so she drinks like Robert.

9. I loved the return of Podrick Payne... the little squire that could. "Ser? My Lady?" Was anyone else reminded of Peppermint Patty and Marcie?

10. I missed that the Hound might be the gravedigger. Hmmmmmm. The septon's speech on a man turning his life from killing to blessing would seem to mirror Sandor's life.

11. Ilyn Payne and Jaime Lannister as best friends? Hilarious, yet deadly serious. Both want to find peace in this life.

12. Margaery's maidenhead. Who took it?

A horse? Probable.

Renly? Probable... he needed the Tyrells so he could have mustered up the courage to sleep with a woman (especially if she looked like Loras... especially if she looked like Loras from behind). But Renly had been scheming for Margaery to be queen for at least a year before he wed her. He'd not been planning to marrry her, nor to marry her to Joff, nor to marry her to Tommen. He'd been planning to do away with Cersei and marry her to Robert.

Could Robert have taken her virginity? Probable. He liked to travel and stay at his lords castles... hunting, drinking, and seducing young women. Renly, Loras, and Olenna could all have served him Margaery.

Did some young knight have Margaery's maidenhead after her wedding to Joff or to Tommen? Possible, but highly unlikely in my view. Why take the risk, in KL, on Cersei's home turf?

13. Why the moontea? For Megga or Ellinor? I doubt it. Were Loras and Margaery in an incestuous relationship? I doubt it, because I don't think Martin would use that plot device twice in the story. Was Pycelle lying? We know he's a liar. He might've been trying to save himself from Cersei... he'd say anything to stay out of the dungeons... and he'd say even more to stay out of Qyburn's clutches. Pycelle might change his story now that Cersei is imprisoned.

Does moontea serve any other purposes? What if Margaery were giving it to Tommen? Would it kill a little boy? Would it make him sickly... like, say, Robert Arryn? Would it kill Tommen?

If Tommen dies, who is the heir? Myrcella, Stannis, or Margaery. The women only inherit in Dorne, and Prince Doran has shown he has no stomach for taking on the rest of Westeros by himself. It seems to me that Stannis would inherit the throne. But since everyone hates him, Margaery could rule until a suitable husband was found to be her new husband and king. Mathis Rowan, Robert Arryn, Dickon Tarly, or Edric Storm might appeal to the Tyrells.

14. Where is Varys? In Pentos, at Magister Illyrio's? At Oldtown, now being called Pate? In Dorne, with Doran? In Mereen, with Dany? In the North, with Stannis? Still in KL, watching and waiting? In the Vale, with Littlefinger? Or with Tyrion, in parts unknown?

15. I really like the Arya POV in the previous books, because they gave insight to the war from the bottom up. She was always a fly on the wall to big events. Now the story is more about her, that's good also. I can just imagine Arya trying to fit back in as a normal person, she'll do fine until someone hears her swear like a sailor or sees her kill someone.

16. Sansa. Finally, she is starting to use her brain. Will she become cold and conniving like Cersei or will she keep her compassionate side and be like her father?

17. Who betrayed Arianne and why did Darkstar try to kill Myrcella? Arianne was betrayed by the pillow talk of one of her conspirators, probably Garion. Perhaps Drey. Darkstar must've been on someone's payroll to attempt to kill a princess while thirty some people were watching... whose payroll? Littlefinger, Varys, the Sand Snakes, undead Catelyn, Olenna Tyrell, and Euron Greyjoy could all benefit by having either Myrcella dead or Dorne invaded and put to the torch.

18. Jaime is thinking more about command than actually fighting. He now appreciates (while still angry with) his father more. He is more calculating and less rash. I believe the burning of the letter was to show to himself that he is no longer Cersei's errand boy.

19. Without a friendly council to help them, Jaime and Kevan will not have an easy time of getting Tommen back. Tyrell and Tarly have armies closer to KL. They may not let any armed body of Lannister soldiery into KL again. Knowing Tommen's frustration with his mother and his lack of closeness to Jaime and Kevan or any Lannister (Tyrion and Myrcella excluded) and knowing Tommen's affinity for both Margaery and Loras, the Tyrells might turn Tommen into one of them.

20. This resurgence of the Faith is intriguing. They hold Cersei and Margaery. In effect, they hold the King since they probably outnumber the Gold and Red Cloaks and the High Septon seems to be the last free ranking person in KL. If Stannis had not abandoned the Faith, I think they'd have welcomed him with open arms after they'd killed two convicted slut Queens and a child of incest. Could Stannis switch religions to gain a throne? Henry of Navarre did it... he became Henry IV of France saying, "Paris is worth a Mass."

21. I was glad that Sam did not step off the ship in Oldtown now looking and acting like a Greek god. Sure, he's improving, but slowly.

22. Why doesn't Brienne write a letter to her father?

23. I liked Brienne's questing for Sansa. She's not very smart and she knows little of human nature, but she's honest and courageous. That got her face half chewed off.

Biter started swallowing before she was dead! I'd been planning on eating my lunch after finishing that chapter. I changed plans and read two more chapters before eating. Yuck!

24. Even though they were quick POVs, the multiple aspects of the Greyjoy succession were fun to read. Asha, Aeron, and Victarion all gave something new to the perspective of the Iron Islands.

I've got more, but it's after midnight.

[Culhwch]

Hmm. Comprehensive. There were things I wished to respond to, but I'd forgotten them by the end...

Originally Posted by Raven

Third, did anyone else get the Sarella/Alleras thing? The Sphinx? 'I am no lord's son'?

Who's Sarella? Refresh my memory, if you don't mind, I'm drawing a complete blank....

Something I just recalled was the 'hiring' of Ser Shadich, the Mad Mouse, by Littlefinger at the end. Will he recognise Sansa in her Alaine disguise, do you think? Or has he already tweaked to the ruse?

[Raven]

Culhwch: Sarella is a Sand Snake - in fact, the last one running around free, since (we're told) she was off doing something in Oldtown when the others were rounded up by Doran. It seems that what she was doing was impersonating a boy, in order to study at the Citadel.

Aemon refers to her in his dying speech: 'the Sphinx is the riddle, not the riddler'. Sarella/Alleras is a riddle of sorts, and Alleras is known as the Sphinx. So she must have a key part to play in events.

Boaz: I'll reply in numbers too.

1. I liked the switch from a 'strict' POV structure to a more diffuse one, with minor POVs cropping up once or twice. It's a daring move to change structure in the middle of a series. But it works.

2. As I said earlier, 'Pate' is fairly obviously Jaqen H'ghar.

3. Cersei's little experiment in bisexuality is a truly tragic scene. That one made me pity her more than the godswood scene. It illustrates horrifically her psychological hangups: she wants to be a man, she can only relate to people through manipulating them sexually, she sees everything in terms of power relations.

4. Stoneheart is a very different person from Cat. She's not even within shouting distance of sanity, for a start. It's unfair and a bit pointless to try to use Stoneheart's character as a criticism of pre-death Cat.

5. Speaking of Cat, I love that Arya names herself for her mother. Goes to prove my pet theory that Arya is a lot more like Cat than Sansa is.

6. Varys, I'm fairly sure, is hiding in KL somewhere. He's not with Illyrio, and he's not in Oldtown. Both of these I'm 90% sure of.

7. Remember that Swift and Pycelle are free. And they've summoned Kevan. I'm willing to bet that Kevan hasn't been sitting on his hands. He is the one Lannister capable of cutting a deal with Tarly and the Tyrells. Don't count the Lannisters out yet.

[Culhwch]

Originally Posted by Raven

Culhwch: Sarella is a Sand Snake - in fact, the last one running around free, since (we're told) she was off doing something in Oldtown when the others were rounded up by Doran. It seems that what she was doing was impersonating a boy, in order to study at the Citadel.

Christ, I never came close to that. Well spotted.

[Raven]

Can't take credit, Cul: like I say, it was pointed out to me by a friend. Like all these things, it then becomes obvious. I was, for example, extremely puzzled by Aemon's 'Sphinx' reference, because I couldn't see where Alleras fitted in to anything: but once you realise 'he' is Sarella, it makes a little more sense.

[Florian the Fool]

Which friend would that be then, Raven?

(As if I couldn't guess......)

[Raven]

Dunno, maybe you could.

AFAIR, it was a boarder over at Ran's called the Sea King's Daughter who first pointed it out to me. But several other people I know got it too.

[asdar]

To reference her name to her mother would tie her to Arya Stark. I think it was just a reference to cats like the ones she learned from in Kings landing.

Please don't let it be her mother. That insane zombie scares me and I like Arya.

[Raven]

asdar: I think that would be an astounding coincidence. Arya just happens to decide to name herself after a cat, never thinking 'hey, and that's my mother's name!' No, she chose the name for her mother, at least in part.

Console yourself with what I said earlier: Stoneheart is not Cat.