[SPOILERS] AFfC General Discussion

[The Blackfish]

Yeah, I've never read Jordans ... somehow hunting through multiple libraries to find book number 1 out of 11 (or whatever it is up to now) doesn't sound too fun ....

[Thadlerian]

Did anyone make themselves any thoughts about the prologue itself? I found it slightly annoying. Not that it was badly written, but somehow it was very predictable. From the paragraph (the 2nd.) where Pate's girl was mentioned, you would have to be profoundly blind not to see that one of them very soon would suffer this or that sort of gruesome death. I can't remember any actual titles, but I seem to have read this sort of side-plot dozens of times in fantasy. I found myself thinking "come on, get on with that dying now". The only element of uncertainty was whether it would be Rosey or Pate being killed.

Otherwise a great book, though. Less action and more introspection, it seems.

But there's another thing I don't understand (actually there are many, but this is the foremost one) : In one of the later Jaime chapters, Lady Genna says: "... but Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you. I said so once to your father's face, and he would not speak to me for half a year."
What does this mean? Is there some sort of genealogical anomaly that I haven't catched yet, or is the meaning figurative; like, Tyrion inherited Tywin's characteristics while Jaime didn't?

[The Blackfish]

Thadlerian, I took it to mean that the gross, unwanted, monstorous son of Lord Tywin inherited all of his scheming, plotting, and quick thinking ways, while Jaime, firstborn (?) and master swordsman did not share Tywins callousness or ability to scheme and plot. Not that Jaime was not a Lannister with all their naturally inherited talents, it just that there has always been a softness (not the right word, but good enough for now) to Jaime that he suppressed for the sake of his father - now that Tywin is not around we are seeing more of that quality in him. (And another thought - how did Tywin Lannister become such a cold-hearted bastard anyway?)

When Lady Genna told Tywin that Tyrion was the son most like him, Tywin took monstorous offence, because he hated all forms of weakness and imperfection.

[Winters_Sorrow]

Originally Posted by The Blackfish

And another thought - how did Tywin Lannister become such a cold-hearted bastard anyway?

This is referenced quite a few times in the books (mostly in Clash of Kings i think). The seeds were sown because Tywin's father was very soft-hearted and reluctant to 'stand up for himself'. So his vassals mocked him behind his back and took advantage of his good nature. When Tywin inherited this mess, one of his first challenge's was to deal with Lord Castamere - one of his vassals who had (and this is where my memory is a little fuzzy) either renaged on a debt of money owed to Lannister or risen against them militarily. Either way, Tywin utterly destroyed the House, killed all the nobles and tore down their castle to show that he meant business.
Funnily enough, his vassals were much more cooperative after that....

[Dolorous Edd]

Originally Posted by Winters_Sorrow

If Gregor is still alive (as seems to be the consensus), I'm just wondering there's anyone left who can kill him now? Loras looks completely screwed (surprised there's not been more of an outcry about that, actually)

Never really liked Loras, arrogant little **** tbh. Hope he isn't dead, i always wanted Jon to kill him.
I expect it's all a scheme though, or his injuries arn't as severe as they have been made out to be. Hopefully being broiled slightly will have had a positive effect on him.

Originally Posted by cacotopos

I'm wondering about what Jaime's gonna do, I couldn't decide whether he threw the message to the fire so the contents couldn't be read, because it was personal (with the "I love you I love you I love you" being incriminating), or whether he's not going to go to King's Landing, and is giving Cersei the brush off, or if he's undecided about what to do.

Any thoughts?

Jaime is through with Cersei, i'm sure of it. Her mocking, angry attitude towards him in recent months hardened his heart towards her, the knowledge of her betrayals, with not one but many different men, has destroyed any love he had for her.
He will turn up for her trial though (His duty is with Tommen, so he'll rush back for his sake, knowing how vulnerable he now is), long enough for Cersei to look up in hope, and for him to turn his back on her.

Originally Posted by Thadlerian

But there's another thing I don't understand (actually there are many, but this is the foremost one) : In one of the later Jaime chapters, Lady Genna says: "... but Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you. I said so once to your father's face, and he would not speak to me for half a year."
What does this mean? Is there some sort of genealogical anomaly that I haven't catched yet, or is the meaning figurative; like, Tyrion inherited Tywin's characteristics while Jaime didn't?

/me puts on voice of "Comic book guy" from the Simpsons.

"Best....Line....Ever!"

[Dolorous Edd]

Oh, and how cool was it when Sam beat the **** out of Daeron? The treacherous little git! I must admit i had hoped he would be dragged back to the wall in chains and beheaded by jon. That would have been a very powerful scene, and would have had a startling effect on his other friends, i do not doubt.

[RWHamel]

The large grave digger was mentioned to many times in that Brienne chapter about the Quite Island. So unless GRRM has created a "Red Herring," that's one clue. The Elder Brother knows to much information. The only way I can see that happening is if he was able to talk to Sandor for weeks. Then of course Sandor's name isn't in brackets in the Appendix. Although I guess that's cheating. I really enjoyed the allegorical comments concerning Septon Meribald and "Dog."

Podrick: "Who does he belong to?"

Meribald: "Why, to himself, and to the Seven. As to his name, he has not told me what it is. I call him Dog."

[RWHamel]

I can't wait for Lancel to show up in King's Landing.

High Septon: "I understand my son that you wish to join the Church Militant."

Lancel: "Yes, Holy Father."

High Septon: "You must give up all your worldly possessions, and confess all your past sins."

Lancel: "Gladly, Holy Father. I give the lands I have as Lord of Darry, and I fornicated with Queen Cersei, and plotted to kill King Robert."

High Septon: "I forgive you my son, but you must pay penance. Fifty Hail Mothers, and you must bear witness against the Queen in the Holy Tribunal, so we may burn the traitorous bitch at the stake."

Lancel: "Yes, Holy Father."

[Dolorous Edd]

Originally Posted by RWHamel

I can't wait for Lancel to show up in King's Landing.

High Septon: "I understand my son that you wish to join the Church Militant."

Lancel: "Yes, Holy Father."

High Septon: "You must give up all your worldly possessions, and confess all your past sins."

Lancel: "Gladly, Holy Father. I give the lands I have as Lord of Darry, and I fornicated with Queen Cersei, and plotted to kill King Robert."

High Septon: "I forgive you my son, but you must pay penance. Fifty Hail Mothers, and you must bear witness against the Queen in the Holy Tribunal, so we may burn the traitorous bitch at the stake."

Lancel: "Yes, Holy Father."

Hehe!

But he's already there is he not? Wasn't he one of the seven guards who escorted the high septon to a meeting with cersei? I seem to remember her thinking some scathing thoughts about him when she looked at him.

[RWHamel]

I totally missed it, if Lancel is there.

[Tyranus]

I can't wait for his book to be released in America. Ha just checked out Amazon,it comes out in eight days so I will be pre-ordering it off Amazon Thursday.

[RWHamel]

Neither can I. I want to compare the two. Especially the maps.

[The Blackfish]

I know. Call me eccentric, but I rate a book by the quality of the maps. And to be honest, I was a little dissappointed with the maps in this latest GRRM offering. It was quite lacking in detail (at least in my copy) For instance, none of the places that Brienne was at were large enough to be on the map, which made it difficult to keep track of where she was.

Oh well, can't have everything I guess. Hopefully the next book will show all the exotic places that Dany has been travelling through.

[Lord of Winterfell]

As I was reading AFFC, I referred to the map in the hardcover version of A Storm of Swords... its a wonderfully detailed map.

I still wonder why the publisher offered such a crappy map with AFFC?

[Culhwch]

Yeah, my copy came with the same dodgy general Westeros maps, and then just a semi-detail of the Westlands, which never really played much of a part in the story...

Lancel is in King's Landing, by the way. Edd's right.

On the prologue, Thadlerian - you definitely should have seen Pate's death coming. Each book has had a prologue, each prologue has had a driving character, and each prologue has ended with that character's (usually messy) death. It's the closest thing to predictability in ASoIaF, I'd say....