[AFFC Spoilers] Margaery and Cersei

[Raven]

Well, I hope some of you people have finished the book.

OK, the one thing that stands out for me as hard to figure out is what's going on with Margaery. When Cersei tries to get Osney into her bed, Marge leads him on while not actually doing anything wrong. Fair enough. She encourages Pycelle to become part of her inner circle - again, fair enough. Sensible stuff. Pycelle is on the Small Council and knows where a lot of the bodies are buried in re the Lannisters, sometimes literally. And there is a good chance Lady Merryweather is a double agent planted by Marge. So far, so sensible - her grandmother has taught her well.

But the moon tea is a problem. Why would Marge ask Pycelle for this, if not to encourage Cersei to think she was being unfaithful? She must have been intending to provoke Cersei into action. And yet, if that was her plan, it seems stupidly risky, given that she couldn't prove her virginity.

The intervention of the Faith couldn't have been anticipated, of course, but surely even if Cersei's accusation had been made in court the inspection would have been similar? And if the moon tea is provided for some innocent reason, why is Marge willing to contemplate trial by battle - at least until she realises Boros Blount would be her champion? Yet I can't for a second think her stupid enough to actually be guilty of infidelity to Tommen.

Some piece of the puzzle is missing here.

Incidentally, Margaery is of course NOT the younger queen from Cersei's prophecy - that has to be Dany.

[cacotopos]

Well, as you say, Margaery had Pycelle on her side, she felt she had brought him over to her, that would explain the trusting she would have to ask for the moon tea, if he was hers he wouldn't tell Cersei. So perhaps Marge misjudged him, either she didn't realize that Pycelle would tell the truth if pressed, (and i think the reason he did tell Cersei was because he is old and finds himself out of favour with Cersei and getting treated as a fool/with less respect than he used to) or Pycelle wanted to get into Cersei's good books again.

Although I'm not that much sure about my understanding of it now, maybe i'm completely wrong.

As to Marge's faithfulness, I got the impression that her and her brother Ser Loras were mirroring Cersei and Jaime, though it wasn't proved or outright said by any of the characters. Like it is said how Loras visits her every morning and night, too lazy to look that up-sorry .

so that's what i think.

[Sword of the Morning]

Finally some one is getting the threads going. I finished

Originally Posted by cacotopos

As to Marge's faithfulness, I got the impression that her and her brother Ser Loras were mirroring Cersei and Jaime, though it wasn't proved or outright said by any of the characters. Like it is said how Loras visits her every morning and night, too lazy to look that up-sorry .so that's what i think.

Loras and Margaery could be doing as Cersei and Jamie. However, I would have to say that Margaery is too clever to put herself in a situation when Tommen is so young. Cersei and Jamie had Robert as a cover. Any child fromCersei and Robert would be considered to be fathered by Robert.As fot the moon tea that has to be made up by Pycelle. He does serve the realm *couch* Cersei/ House Lannister so well. I'd have to say that Cersei's turning to Qyburn must have ruffled Pycelle's bird cage.

Also, I don't know if Cacotopos but GRRM did confirm sometime last year that Loras and Renly were quite the male friends, err they were gay or into that kind of stuff. They did "pray" at the septons. Someone here should be able to tell you more if you'd like.

And finally Cersei is getting what she deserves. Karma happends and bits you in the rump. Hopefully Jamie does not do something stupid.

[Raven]

cacotopos: Cersei considers whether Loras and Marge are, um, close : but she knows, as do many others, that Loras was Renly's lover. In fact, IIRC she even speculates whether Marge is also gay. Admittedly, she also speculates over whether Renly might have slept with Marge too. She's got a mixed-up view of sexual preferences, as you can tell from the Lady Taena scene. Not surprising really...

[Dolorous Edd]

Could be the new High Septon is lying about Margaery having been "deflowered", for his own mysterious ends. he has seemingly to appear from nowhere, risen rapidly and after winning over the masses by "sacrificing" his crown etc. his first priority was the re-establishing the militant orders. Me thinks someone's got an eye on the throne.

[Raven]

DE: the clight flaw in that idea is that Margaery would surely be protesting her innocence, if the High Septon was lying. Yet she seems to behave as if she's been caught bang to rights. She's even prepared to undergo trial by combat, as long as it's Garlan defending her.

[Florian the Fool]

I see three possibilities here:

1) Pycelle is lying, to curry favour with Cersei
2) Margery has taken a lover
3) The moon tea is for someone else.

I find 1) unlikely, as Pycelle seemed to be distancing himself from Cersei and cosying up to the Tyrells. But he is a monstrous coward, and I believe he is far more cunning than he lets anyone believe (yes, he was outsmarted by Tyrion, but Tyrion is better player than most), so it is not impossible.

3) is technically possible, but unappealing dramatically. Why would Marge take such a great risk for someone else's sake? It would have to be somebody tremendously important to her, and I don't think any of her cousins fit the bill.

So I think 2) is the most likely. It doesn't fit with our impression of Margery so far in the series, but it certainly fits with GRRM's habit of throwing curve balls at his readers. Marge is not lacking in cunning, thanks in no small part to Olenna, of course, but she is still a young girl and fallible. I don't find it impossible that she really does have a lover. Just occasionally. Nothing on the scale of what Cersei likes to imagine of course.

It's not Loras. You can be sure of that.

What puzzles me is, if the High Septon has determined that Osney's confession was a lie, why is he still detaining Margery and her cousins?

[Culhwch]

Originally Posted by Florian the Fool

What puzzles me is, if the High Septon has determined that Osney's confession was a lie, why is he still detaining Margery and her cousins?

Because the inspection proved that none of them are in fact maidens. Though they may yet be, as Cersei ponders - a horse is more likely to take a high-born lady's maidenhead than a man.

This goes back to what Raven was saying about why Margaery isn't protesting her innocence - because there is physical proof that she isn't a maiden, and she entered the sept on Maiden's Day or whatever it was, and profaned the sacred blah blah blah. This new High Septon is ridiculously pious - I don't think he has any desires on the throne, only the wish to raise the faith to what it once was, and he is absolutely devoted to the doctrine, not a bit lenient where matters involve nobles and, well, gold and other favours, as the previous High Septons were. That is why he is fervently pursuing both queens.

For what it's worth I don't think Margaery has taken a lover, but I don't see how the moon tea works into it then. Maybe she just likes the taste?

[Winters_Sorrow]

I have to disagree there Culwhch. I think Margery probably has taken a lover. I'm just not convinced who yet. She does seem genuinely shocked by her cousins fate, however. I wasn't certain that not being a Maiden was a death sentence. I don't think they were married or betrothed. Unless the new High Septon disapproves of that too. As far as the new High Septon goes, it seems he wants to (restore or establish) a 'papal' office where the crown is subservient to the church. A bit like medieval europe once was. I wonder if in the next few books he 'excommunicates' nobles he feels are unpious. My yes, this can of worms has a lot more to give yet!

[Culhwch]

Elinor was betrothed. To a young squire, can't recall his name... True, though, I believe the death sentence was reserved for Margaery, who committed high treason. Will Cersei's crime - sleeping with Osney, be considered such, as she isn't currently wed? And will Uncle Kev come back?

I think probably it could go either way with Margaery and her supposed lover. I just can't see her being so brazen under Cersei's nose, knowing that her family is depending on the match. And she does love her family. Though not in the same way Cersei does....

[Florian the Fool]

Originally Posted by Culhwch

Because the inspection proved that none of them are in fact maidens. Though they may yet be, as Cersei ponders - a horse is more likely to take a high-born lady's maidenhead than a man.

Good point, I had forgotten that. Somehow this Septon doesn't strike me as a man who will accept that horseriding excuse, no matter how true it may be.

[Dolorous Edd]

Originally Posted by Culhwch

Will Cersei's crime - sleeping with Osney, be considered such, as she isn't currently wed?

Remember, Osney has also confessed to murdering the previous high septon on cersei' orders. I expect he will probably view that rather seriously.

[Culhwch]

Originally Posted by Dolorous Edd

Remember, Osney has also confessed to murdering the previous high septon on cersei' orders. I expect he will probably view that rather seriously.

Ah, yes, had forgotten that bit. Although he may thank her quietly for that....

[The Blackfish]

I keep thinking back to the time Littlefinger and Sansa arrived on the fingers, and he revealed to her that ALL the Kettleblacks were in his pocket.

Do you think they still are? If so, how does that affect the game? Perhaps this explains Osney's reticence to take Margaery's maidenhead ... (although as has already been established it has already been taken)

[Dolorous Edd]

The **** will really hit the fan for the Lannister's when the new, pious Lancel, in a fit of guilt, confesses to his part in roberts murder + his relationship with cersei. Tyrion commented that he was very much a poor coppy of jaime, so it will give credibility to stannis' accusations. Not that i expect cersei to be alive/in power by that time. Still, it will cause probs for kevan.