The Fool's Gender? (possible spoilers)

[DethLord]

"well it doesn't really. because the fool would be acting as a male, right? talking to people who think he is male, he wouldn't say he was female, even if he was, in that situation."


In a situation such as this I think its fair to say that the Fool is not doing any "acting" as such. This is about as honest as it gets between these two. Also remember, when it is just Fitz and the Fool The Fool does not act male or female, he just is.

[-putawaythosepliers-]

By the end of Asssassins Quest *not got onto any of the other Hobb books yet* i was pretty convinced he was a ...he. Call me a hopeless romantic, but i would have loved it if the fool turned out to be female and then Fitz would have seen his relationship with the fool in a new way and they would have run off into the horizon together...
ahhh
anyway, it was a nice thought for a while.

[the_faery_queen]

Not really. ok here's your quote bit.
"They were meticulously careful to needle them in just as she instructed them. It is a horrible thing to do to a child. Hold him still and hurt him. Any child.’ He rocked slightly, his shoulders hunched. His voice was distant.

i can't see the fool saying, hold HER still and hurt HER, even if that was what was said, because i don't think he would be so carless as to let his facade slip. besides, it's not really a good time to reveal to his best friend that he is actually female, is it? so i think even if he was female, he would have just continued with the idea that he was male because under the circumstances, remembering such awful stuff, would he really then want to alienate fitz, or create an awkward situation by revealling he's female?

[-putawaythosepliers-]

yes, but can't you just imagine them together?! the fool choosing Fitz's clothes and running him a bath and cooking him dinner.
awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

[the_faery_queen]

yeah.

[greedo]

Originally Posted by the_faery_queen

Not really. ok here's your quote bit.
"They were meticulously careful to needle them in just as she instructed them. It is a horrible thing to do to a child. Hold him still and hurt him. Any child.’ He rocked slightly, his shoulders hunched. His voice was distant.

i can't see the fool saying, hold HER still and hurt HER, even if that was what was said, because i don't think he would be so carless as to let his facade slip. besides, it's not really a good time to reveal to his best friend that he is actually female, is it? so i think even if he was female, he would have just continued with the idea that he was male because under the circumstances, remembering such awful stuff, would he really then want to alienate fitz, or create an awkward situation by revealling he's female?

Well, as far as i know, if you want to say something in english that applies generally to everyone, like in this case, you use "he" instead of having to write "he or she" every time. Which means it doesn't prove anything, though i may not be correct as my english is not exactly perfect Besides, if i remember correctly, Robin Hobb herself said it that even she hadn't decided if the Fool is a male or a female.
But i think the most important thing here is the question she makes you think about: Does it matter?

[the_faery_queen]

yeah. that's what i loved about the fool, his argument about it just being plumbing, abotu gender not really mattering, and he's right. it really doesn't matter. ok most people fancy one or the other gender, but i sometimes think that limits us, it stops us getting close to other people becuase we're not that way inclined. i think it's kinda sad, sometimes, that we let being gay or straight rule our lives so much. *shrug* there are ways to love each other, without it being about sex. but society doesn't seem to think that way much anymore.

[TheBlueFool]

Originally Posted by quiet cynic

I believe the Fool is a guy. This is due to the many small hints in the three relevant series. I also believe that the question of his gender is something the Fool did on purpose, and probably enjoyed somewhat. Being a consumate actor, this would not have been difficult, and it smacks of his sense of humor and personality. None-the-less, it seems irrelevant in the end, because his relationship with Fritz is, I believe, too deep to be affected by something so basic as gender. It almost seemed to be the whole point at times - that their feelings went above/beyond that.

Agree

[TheBlueFool]

Originally Posted by the_faery_queen

i don't thik he was effeminitate. effiminate, to me, implies camp. he wasn't camp, except for as lord golden, and that was a show. he wasn't female, he wasn't male, he transcedied gender traits, he just was a person who was free of gender. there are a lot of peole who feel that they're neither gender, they dont' relate to either, and i think the fool was like that, his love for fitz was definatly more than sexual love, it was love love. and i don't think he was bi or gay or straight, i dont' think he was bothered by bodies or gender at all. he just loved who he loved. gay or straight or bi implies some sort of preference (well bi likes both clearly) but i think he would have felt the same about anyone, any creature, any animal, anything, because he loved who they were, not their bodies.

well said

[natushka]

**SPOILERS**
Well, after all that has been said it seems that there is no more to add. Yet...
As most of you do, I too strongly believe that by the end of the second trilogy its pretty clear that the Fool is male for many of the mentioned reasons (especially Teir's).
I'll just add that the encounter with the Pale Lady creates a comparison between her (with all her very prominent feminine physical traits) and the Fool, that leaves little doubt regarding the existence of clear gender differences. Moreover, she, who knows Beloved since his 'school days' (when he was certainly not pretending), refers to him by his real name and as MALE... She also says to Fitz, while trying to seduce him, that she (with her fertility and feminine body) can be for him what the Fool cannot.
However, (and if you're still with me I truly adore you - cause now comes the interesting part ===>) Robin Hobb did something unbelievably frustrating, annoying, and even a little immoral .
The thing is that until the very end of the story she made us (readers) believe that the Fool is a woman:
* Starting from the Farseer trilogy in which Hobb planted doubt regarding the issue, when clearly asserting that the gender of the Fool is unknown. Thus the mystery began. Later Starling believes that the Fool is female (in that book her opinion in general proves to be very reliable- one cannot deny).
* In the Tawny Man Hobb again and again strongly implies that he is indeed a woman. There are repeated remarks about how the Fool acts womanly (hugs like a woman- when meeting Fitz at the beginning, screams like a woman- when Fitz heals his scars, and so on). These seem to me (because of their frequency) not only as presenting a character's feminine side but as Hobb's actual preparation of the reader to such revelation.
* Then, of course, there is Amber- if you had any doubts regarding this subject, this event put the gender issue in spotlight. The Fool as a woman was no longer a vague idea but an existing character.
* Now, it was already mentioned, and should be mentioned again, that the Fool holds the blanket (or whatever) over the chest when showing Fitz the tattoos- I'm sorry but I cannot understand why a man would ever do that. Moreover the illustration on my book cover clearly shows a woman figure with the tattoos on it (Hobb probably confirmed that illustration...)- what can you say to that??
* When you add to all that the fact that the Fool's love for Fitz is not platonic (a discovery that causes their big fight in the second book), well it kinda make you develop hopes for (not to mention an attachment to) this "couple".

O.K. After all these fascinating arguments let me conclude (Hallelujah!). I hope .
Forgive me, but I believe that what was so appealing in the combination of Fitz and the Fool (what made readers fascinated with them throughout three long books) was the sexual tension between them (and the possibility that it will manifest sometime). Hobb wonderfully managed to keep that tension both hidden and revealed. She did this while offering a sense of morality by creating the possibility (that seemed at times like a fact) that the Fool is a woman. I didn't like her doing this to me.

After all they've been through together, and with all the love between them I expected that Fitz and Beloved (the woman) would end up together (this expectation, I think, was based on the plot as it was presented by Hobb). With all the respect, the happy ending (with Molly) could have been ideal for the first trilogy. But now I say- Molly who?
Moreover, when looking at Kettle's words in the end of the "Assassin's Quest" it seems that Hobb herself intended the story to go in a different direction: she tells Fitz two things- that he doesn't want to remember his mother because he feels she abandoned him, and that he and Molly had grown too far apart (and maybe he never really loved her). This seemed at the time outrageous but later on perfectly acceptable.
I feel that Hobb has nurtured a promise that she eventually didn't keep. The Fool was used and discarded as an old clothing to an even more lonely, pathetic, and depressing situation (life) than Fitz has been in the end of the first trilogy.

Well, I'm tired, and you are probably asleep
The End

[Grimward]

Thanks largely to this site, and in particular to Overread, I've just discovered Robin Hobb. Am reading Fool's Errand and liking it (I know this isn't the beginning, but it was 50 cents for a perfectly new copy at a library paperback sale; how could I resist?). Will be back after I've read much more (so as to avoid spoilers!!!) to weigh in on matters of gender and other such....

[Alexa]

Don't plan anything else meanwhile. Once you'll get addicted, you will not able to think, eat, sleep or work till you finish them. And the worse is that at the end, you'll cry to have more of them.

It would be interesting to have another seria, this time at Fool's home.

[Lysalis]

Hobb got me almost crazy with all her hints that the fool might be female. The first two books of the farseer trilogy the fool was definitly male to me, no question. But as Starling mentioned to Fitz that she thinks the Fool is a woman, I was convinced Starling was right and Fitz just doesn't want to see it. So I continued with The Tawny Man trilogy still convinced the fool is a woman, but at some stage I began to doubt again. I saw the Fool as male, but wanted him to be a woman (so that Fitz could love him/her).

However when Fitz and the fool swaped bodies, Fitz must have noticed if there was something missing between his legs, wouldn't he? I really hoped that would be the scene where Hobb reveals the Fool's real gender. Yeah but it wasn't to be

I've read the Liveship Traders the last, reading these, leaves for me no doubt that the Fool is male. A bit strange, I know, but I'm pretty sure the Fool is a Man.

[Overread]

I am more convinced now that the fool is possibly able to change genders based on external input. Starting out he is male - then he meets Fitz and there is the connection that he feels with Fitz (as a young man) that is very strong and close - on the young Fool I think this is interpreted on a subconsious level as love - which moves from the normal love to a physical love. That triggors a change in the gender around the time of the third book of the Fareseer Trillogy and might go some way to explain why Starling sees the femanin side and also why the fool is more snarky with regard to the direct questions and such (I think a part of him feels that he is betraying Fitz and also himself in giving into the subconcioius lust element).

Ergo he moves away from Fitz and out to Bingtown where he remains for the greaer part as a female (thus is able to advice Athea (sp) on how to hide her gender in close quarters as he(now she) had to do the same on the quest into the north to find the dragons).

Beginning of Tawny Man I think the Fool has matured more and is able to control his basic instincts and feelings and also to keep then on the level of love between two people without needing the physical component - clearly the interaction between Fitz and the Fool at the end is between 2 male creatures and not where one is female.

[Lysalis]

Originally Posted by Overread

Ergo he moves away from Fitz and out to Bingtown where he remains for the greaer part as a female (thus is able to advice Athea (sp) on how to hide her gender in close quarters as he(now she) had to do the same on the quest into the north to find the dragons).

Robin Hobb described Ambers face as a bit too masculine (if I remember right), also Amber wears robes that are rather large and unshaped. I take that as prove, that the Fool tries to hide his (male) gender.


At any rate I hope Hobb is going to write another trilogy about the Fool, and tells us all his gender or if he has the ability to change it, or maybe 'he' is a neutrum or a hermaphrodite