Deepcut barracks and army deaths

[I, Brian]

Imagine the situation - you're in the armed forces, and subjected to constant bullying. There's even rape going on. You're probably not happy with that, and at some point maybe decide to leave.

Excepting that...one of your officers has a gun to your head, and tells you that if you that if you try and dishonour the army with your complaints, they will shoot you.

You disbelieve. The police would be able to protect you, surely?

The next day your body is recovered within the barracks, showing multiple bullet wounds - one single shot to the head, plus mutliple wounds from more distant gunfire.

The internal army investigation closes with a verdict of suicide. OF course, the Ministry of Defence supports the ruling, and thus so does the British Government.

Welcome to Deepcut.

Or, at least, that's the scenario that's being alleged.

Bloody scary. Here's a somewhat neutral coverage, by the BBC, of the closing of the police inquiry (who have been criticised from the beginning for not making a proper effort to investigate the matter as one of suspicious deaths):

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3179985.stm

Q&A: The Deepcut mystery

Police have concluded there are no grounds for a prosecution over the deaths of four young recruits at the Deepcut army barracks. BBC News Online examines the background.

Who were the people who died?

They were all new recruits, training at the Royal Logistics Corps' primary training base at the Princess Royal Barracks at Deepcut.

Private Sean Benton, 20, was hit by one bullet at close range and another four apparently fired from a distance, in June 1995.

Cheryl James, 18, died in November 1995 from a single bullet to the head.

Private Geoff Gray, 17, was hit by two bullets to the head. Another three believed to have been fired at the same time were not found.

And James Collinson was killed by a single shot up through the chin in March 2002. He was 17.

Are there others?

None that is known about, although there was an unrelated death of a another Deepcut recruit. But statistics point to high levels of deaths among young army recruits.

MoD figures showed there were 1,748 non-combat deaths of army personnel in or around military property from 1990 to 2002, and 188 deaths due to firearms between January 1990 and July 2002.

Families of soldiers elsewhere who died in non-combat situations now want public inquiries, too.

What do the various parties say?

The families of all four victims are not convinced that their sons and daughters killed themselves.

They want an independent inquiry held in public to ascertain all the facts and - if the claims are true - to establish what life was like for them at the barracks that might have driven them to such desperate measures.

A number of MPs - about a quarter of the Commons - have backed their calls.

The government refused a public inquiry while the police investigation was going on, but has not committed itself on what it will do now that the police probe is complete.

Police delayed publishing their report while they held talks with an independent investigator appointed by the bereaved families.

Who has investigated it?

The Army held internal inquiries into the deaths of Privates Benton and James.

It will hold similar investigations on Privates Gray and Collinson once it receives Surrey police report.

The coroner has held inquests into the first three, recording a verdict of suicide on Private Benton and open verdicts on Privates James and Gray. He will conduct an inquest into Private Collinson's death after he receives the Surrey police report.

He must decide whether to make an application to the High Court to hold new inquests on the other three.

Why do the families want another inquiry?

They were unhappy with the army inquiry and want an independent investigation.

They say potentially vital evidence went missing and some claim police suspect some soldiers were not as forthcoming as they might be.

Each wants to know:

• Was it murder - and if so, why?

• What could have been done to prevent it?

• If it was suicide, how could it happen?

They want transparency and reassurance that there has been no cover-up, which they believe can come only from an independent public investigation.

So there have been conspiracy theories?

There have certainly been plenty of accusations of a cover-up, with most of the investigations away from public scrutiny.

There were claims that some of Private James' letters were withheld from her inquest. The Army says they were shown to the coroner, but he denies this.

Private Collinson's parents feared their home was bugged, but police found nothing.

However, the government did allow independent investigator Frank Swann access to the Deepcut barracks.

What are the remaining options?

The police report will go to Surrey coroner Michael Burgess, who will decide whether there is sufficient new evidence to justify new inquests on the first three deaths.

He has yet to hold an inquest on Private Collinson.

Police identified in their report a number of areas of risk to potentially vulnerable recruits and have passed their recommendations to the Army. The Army will consider the comments before taking any further action but points out it is already acting on an internal report on all its recruit-training bases, acknowledging the need for more instructors to monitor new recruits and improving welfare standards.

[Foxbat]

It's hard to give an opinion on this when so much of the story still doesn't make any sense. My gut feeling is (and always has been) that there is something very wrong here. I just don't believe the suicide stories - mainly because of the gunshot wounds being fired from differing distances. I'm no ballistics expert but I just don't understand how this could occur without a second party being involved.
It's also difficult to believe the conclusions the Police have come to - obviously there may be information they have that they are unwilling or unable to release but that does nothing to instill confidence in the findings.

[I, Brian]

My gut feeling is also very bad. And the idea that the army would happily give the civvy police every hospitality would make no sense.

A public enquiry is deifnitely the only way to resolve and address what could possibly be a very terrible situation.

[littlemissattitude]

That is a quite frightening report. Certainly, there have been scandals in the U.S. military, notably the recent sexual abuse scandals at the Air Force Academy. However, I've never heard of accusations of anything like this.

I don't know about the other branches of the military, but from what I know of Marine Corps boot camp, it would be very difficult for something like this to go on. My best friend's son is a Marine and I learned while he was in boot camp that they have something called "fire watch", that is, recruits alternate standing guard all night over the barracks. There are various reasons for this, including the function they get the name from - guarding against fire. However, one of the main reasons for this night watch is to prevent any recruits who are emotionally upset because of the rigors of training or homesickness from attempting suicide. This, it seems to me, would make it more difficult to pull off a cover-up such as this seems to be.

Certainly, their needs to be further inquiry.

[I, Brian]

I had a funny feeling that such events would be less likely to occur ni the US - for no better reason that you have a more open system of government over there.

Britain is still run by an "old school" system, which has no interest in being open. There's certainly opportunity for abuse, though, of course, nothing is proven in this case. Not yet - but, really, there are some obstinate issues not yet addressed. And such a suggestion is really quite scary - the complete powerlessness of those recruits if being threatened with very real violence against their actual lives, and all free from recriminations of law.

[Mach2Infinity]

Just came across this on google and felt compelled to register and reply! Oddly enough my interest was sparked when I watched the programme 'Psychic Private Eyes' on the digital channel Zone Reality last night. The three psychics Colin Fry, Tony Stockwell (both of whom are fairly accurate and descriptive) and a lady called T.J Higgs conducted the investigation. At this point I will stress that while I have an open mind regarding psychic/medium ability I do not take what they say as fact but nonetheless what they said was interesting.

They were helping out the mother of one of the victims named Private Geoff Gray, here's a reminder :-

BBC Link

Also more former recruits have come claiming there was a culture of bullying and abuse going on, as witnessed here :-

Scotland on Sunday Link

You can also read two witness statements from the night that Geoff Gray died here :-

Justice4PteGeoffGray

Frank Swann a ballistics expert among other things described how it would only have been possible for Geoff Gray to shoot himself twice if he was sitting down/lying down on the ground, which seems odd considering he went out on patrol that night and showed no signs of being troubled or depressed. He even asked one of the witnesses who made a statement (Lance Corporal I think) about weight training for his upper body as he was eager to take a certain course.

The problem with the suicide theory is that after the first shot is fired the rifle would jolt upwards due to the kickback/recoil thus a second would be way up and to the left missing him. Another thing that's strange is that the witnesses heard three shots going off. Now I'm not ballistics expert but if Geoff Gray shot himself once I can't see how he would've been able to hold down the trigger for successive shots. It's also odd to note that they witnessed the fence rattle (with more force than wind) coupled with seeing an individual running across a cricket pitch. It's also claimed in the statement that there was some altercation between Geoff Gray and fellow Fijian female soldier on the gate, as some drunk Irish man was giving them abuse and demanded to be let in. This is when the Lance Corporal got involved and gained authorisation to let him in. Could he have been the culprit? Surely he would've been questioned? It's interesting that Colin Fry said Geoff Gray was sticking up for a female, could this have been her?

Btw here's Frank Swann's website :-

Frank Swann

His credentials seem genuine and varied so we shouldn't be dealing with an opinion of an amateur here.

It should also be noted that certain evidence was destroyed whether deliberately or not. The Army did state that after any investigation is concluded it is normal to dispose of any remaining items. This included the incineration of Geoff's body and clothing. The family did get Geoff's log book of some sort back, that had some pages which were torn out. Also it seems there may have been someone else's blood on the beret badge which belongs to the killer and is currently in possession of the coroner, or that is where it was last kept. At the funeral of Geoff Gray his mother claimed that a fellow soldier quickly whispered something along the lines of "you have to do someone, before one of us is next". However there hasn't been anymore strange deaths since 2002, the last known one being of Private Collinson from Perth. I can only assume that the Army has moved on the individual(s) responsible and it is possible he/they may still be outhere doing this now.

I'm usually not critical of the military and I believe the majority do a very good job and are a credit to the UK. However you always get the bad apples.

Here's the website which I've already linked ran by Geoff Gray's parents dedicated to finding the real cause of his death :-

Justice4PteGeoffGray

Cheers and may the truth come out hopefully

[Mach2Infinity]

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