Pug Vs Thomas

[Pug8Thomas]

I think Pug would destroy thomas before he got anywhere near him. I mean pug managed to wake up a god and transported a deamon to the bottom of the ocean. Also he said he had the power to destroy all the sauur. I want to see a battle between pug and the entire assembly on kelewan. That would be cool.

[fingy773]

I dont remember Pug destroying all the Saur but make it Pug and Tomas vs. the asembely

[woodsman]

Yeah Pug would rip Thomas to shreds after he lost the bulk of his Valheru powers, still not sure about before hand though...

Add Nakor in and the Assembly is doomed for sure, he provides methods as well as the 'tricks'.

[Daemon Lord]

Neither of them would kill the other I reckon. They're too close

[fingy773]

Originally Posted by woodsman

Yeah Pug would rip Thomas to shreds after he lost the bulk of his Valheru powers, still not sure about before hand though...

Add Nakor in and the Assembly is doomed for sure, he provides methods as well as the 'tricks'.

yeah and macros

welcome demon lord

[Fake Vencar]

I don't think Tomas would kill Pug if he saw him normally, but if he saw him dressed as a Black Robe when he was in one of his rages in Magician, then I've no doubt that Tomas would kill Pug

[nj1]

I go for Pug, even though Tomas is part Dragon Lord I wasn't really impressed with the powers he's shown so far. OK, he's pretty much much the best fighter with a sword, but against a master of the greater path? I'd have to say Pug.

[matchboi]

I'm saying as of at most recent book(wrath of mad god) Pug would beat Tomas without any real problem to kill him. Basic combat Pug is out of luck but magically he has it all.
Can't remember what book it is exactly but dosn't it mention somewhere that Tomas' power is exactly the same as they were at end of the Riftwar but Pug has kept learning and studying and getting more powerful as years go by? Know it would be one noisy fight though

[KaiserDragon]

Tomas once said his power pales before Pug's and Macro's end of.

Also with the Pug Vs Macros I believe Pug again would emerge victorious as stated by... cant remember who but it was said that Pug was Macros' equal in power and I believe Pug's will would drive him

[Belv]

It's a hard question because Feist seems to be afraid of giving us a clear picture of Tomas's power. Throughout the books we only get glimpse of his power.

With both in their prime I would go with Tomas since the dragon lords no doubt had some magical resistance.. (I mean the valheru did beat the witch king and all those other races that raised against them and i bet many of them had magical ability.)

however Tomas has lost a lot of his power and Pug just keep gaining and gaining.... but again, without Feist giving us a clearer picture of what Tomas can do, I just don't know..

[MrWall]

Trying to say this without spoilers....

The end of the Wrath of a mad god suggests to me that Pug wields too much power for anything we have seen so far

which is why I am having such an issue with that ending

[woodsman]

Originally Posted by Belv

With both in their prime I would go with Tomas since the dragon lords no doubt had some magical resistance..

however Tomas has lost a lot of his power and Pug just keep gaining and gaining.... but again, without Feist giving us a clearer picture of what Tomas can do, I just don't know..

Someone with insight.

Tomas lost power (the majority I thought) when the Valheru were repelled from Midkemia at the end of ADaS. Before that Macros clearly stated that he could not vanquish a Valheru and only the gods could, alone, destroy Tomas, for Ashen-Shugar was considered mighty even amongst his brethren. This was the whole point of the Tomas-Ashen-SHugar link to provide the Valheru stability and stop it killing everything. At this point Pug's magic isn't what it is today and Tomas would eat him. The eldar, who taught Pug so much, were dismissed by the Valheru as insignificant and served them as slaves. The golden dragon's Tomas favours are pretty formidable magicians as well, don't forget.

Since Tomas lost a portion of his power, he stands no chance at all.

[dekket]

For all the mentionings (throughout the series) of Tomas being diminished, there has never been any actually lessening of his power shown in any of the books.

At the end of A Darkness at Sethanon Macros (a notorious liar) tells Tomas to:

Seek inward, as well, Tomas, for I think you'll find that much of your power is now gone with those who were Ashen-Shugar's brethren. You still stand with the most powerful of mortals, but I wouldn't seek to master dragons, if I were you. I think they might give you a shock.

to which

Tomas said "I felt myself change . . . at the last." He had seemed subdued since his battle with Draken-Korin.

Macros then went on to say that Tomas retained a great deal of the Valheru heritage.

However, it there is only the word of Macros to go by. In the same conversation Macros also said that he

would move on to something new. Gathis will join me, and the others at my island are cared for, so I have no more duties here. I must move onward,

But obviously Gathis never joined him. And the entire conversation was merely to distract Tomas and Pug from the attempt of Macros to become Sarig (God of Magic).

Later, after Calis unweaves the Lifestone, Tomas looks different.

Gone was the alien edge to his appearance, what he judged the Valheru legacy. Now he looked mortal, a human male with elvish ears.

So after the Valheru are trapped in the Lifestone Tomas feels a bit different. And after the Lifestone is unmade he looks a bit different.
But we never actually see a difference in his powers/abilities. He could possibly still have his full array of Valheru might, and has only lost the connection to the (Valheru) Race, as the race no longer exists.

Anyway, we never knew the full extent of a Valheru's power anyway, only that they were far beyond the Eldar.

And as we don't know the full extent of Pug's power (who now is also likely far beyond the Eldar, and is even beyond that of Macros), it is difficult to decide who is the greater of the two.

Pug is however limited (despite his great ability) in that he casts his spells, whereas Tomas power is inate and instant.

[woodsman]

Seems unlikey he retains the velheru powers. In ADaS he can crush rock and kill men with a thought. When they seek out the evil in SoaBC he demonstrates none of this power - seems odd that Tomas would be so arogant/stupid as not to use it??

Surely as well is doesn't follow that the whole of what Macros said was a lie, just because part of it was? Although. Macros possibly/probably was lying (although I can't see a reason for him doing so) but Tomas' powers - to me at least - do appear to diminish after the end of ADaS.

[Ivaron]

Surely as well is doesn't follow that the whole of what Macros said was a lie, just because part of it was? Although. Macros possibly/probably was lying (although I can't see a reason for him doing so)

Spoilers for Wrath of a Mad God
Well the Gods have enough reason to let Tomas think he's lost his powers don't they? He is a Valheru after all, and thus a threat to them. It's unlikely the Asher-Shugar side of Tomas will ever take over now, but considering Banath was behind everything Macros did, I would expect any small enough reason would be enough to justify lieing. In fact, I would expect him to lie unless there's reason not to.