Dune and science fiction

[Leto]

By later you mean Heretics and Chapterhouse, right ? They were great but, yes, unfinished. Who are the Futars, where does the Matriachs come from ? etc ? Unfortunatly death came too soon.

And although Duncan can help readers to integrate this new books, the huge gap of time between them and the previous one make it harder for some readers to connect with the characters (that's the problem my partner encountered when reading them).

[stirdgit]

Death came too soon, indeed. We will probably never know the origin of the Futars. However, there are many clues as to the origin of the Honored Matres. Remember, during the Scattering the Fish Speakers and many Bene Gesserit went beyond the reach of the Imperium. I think the Honored Matres were a product of their coming together out in the wilderness or space. But of course, this is merely speculation on my part.

As for the timeline, it is one of the things I love about the series.

[Leto]

Nope, that's facts taken directly from Murbella's Second Memory

I do love the timeline too (especially when connected to other Frank Herbert books as the God Makers - same universe, millenia ago).

[Foxbat]

Death came too soon, indeed. We will probably never know the origin of the Futars. However, there are many clues as to the origin of the Honored Matres. Remember, during the Scattering the Fish Speakers and many Bene Gesserit went beyond the reach of the Imperium. I think the Honored Matres were a product of their coming together out in the wilderness or space. But of course, this is merely speculation on my part.

It is implied quite heavily in Chapterhouse that the Honoured Matres are a Bene Gesserit/Fish Speaker Hybrid. Also that the Futars were bred by scattered Bene Tleilax(who themselves seem to have fallen prey to their over-developed Face Dancers). There is also the hint of an enemy forcing the Honoured Matres back to the old Empire and there are very heavy hints within the prequels to what that enemy might be.

I do love the timeline too (especially when connected to other Frank Herbert books as the God Makers - same universe, millenia ago).

A book I enjoyed but never quite grasped

[Leto]

Originally Posted by Foxbat

It is implied quite heavily in Chapterhouse that the Honoured Matres are a Bene Gesserit/Fish Speaker Hybrid. Also that the Futars were bred by scattered Bene Tleilax(who themselves seem to have fallen prey to their over-developed Face Dancers). There is also the hint of an enemy forcing the Honoured Matres back to the old Empire and there are very heavy hints within the prequels to what that enemy might be.

Not implied but stated after Murbella had access to her second memory. Yes they were bred, but from what and for what (not only killing Honored Matres).

Originally Posted by Foxbat

A book I enjoyed but never quite grasped

It's a prologue to Dune (as stated in the french edition), Lewis Orne and fellow psy talents are first experiment in a field which will lead to Guild Navigators. Lewis' mother and sisters are formind a women society and encouraging careful breeding. Ring a bell ? Beside compare how Lewis Orne's mother act with his fater, and compare it to Miles Teg's mother and Lady Fenring, or any Bene Gesserit in Dune. The pattern are there, not yet refined but still there.

[Foxbat]

It's a prologue to Dune (as stated in the french edition), Lewis Orne and fellow psy talents are first experiment in a field which will lead to Guild Navigators. Lewis' mother and sisters are formind a women society and encouraging careful breeding. Ring a bell ? Beside compare how Lewis Orne's mother act with his fater, and compare it to Miles Teg's mother and Lady Fenring, or any Bene Gesserit in Dune. The pattern are there, not yet refined but still there.

Aah! I see a small space in the murky waters. Everything has just become a little clearer

[Leto]

Happy to help.

[fungi from Yuggoth]

Frank Herbert created something amazing with the Dune series; truly one of the finest works of imaginative fiction ever written, even though they were very variable in quality. Chapterhouse, for instance, I found almost unreadable, and God Emperor I felt was little more than a gospel for Dune followers. Nontheless, even Herbert at his worst was one of the most original writers of his age.

[stirdgit]

It seems I have found the right place for some stimulating Dune discussions. I can't express how happy I am to have found this site.

Leto, it's been about three or four years since I have read Heretics or Chapterhouse. Maybe you can help me out. Where is Murbella's memories of the Honrored Matres origins disclosed? I would love to refresh my memory. Thank you in advance.

[Leto]

Chapterhouse, last third of the book. She access to Reverend status to share Odrade memory, and in the end knowing where she comes from fuse the Bene Gesserit and the Honored Matres order.

I'm a freak, I read Dune series at least once every 2 years.

[fungi from Yuggoth]

Originally Posted by Leto

I'm a freak, I read Dune series at least once every 2 years.

I wouldn't go so far as to call myself a Dune freak, but the original novel is one of my most reread books. It's something I seem to be able to glean new things from each time: hidden plot layers, motivations, aspects to certain characters that I'd never noticed before. It truly is an incredibly crafted book that can be read on so many levels.

[Leto]

Hands down the most re-read books in my house, but as 1- although it's great and I see something new in it, I don't consider it as an Holy book to live by, just a very good sci-fi one and 2- I read many other authors than Frank Herbert, I don't care being a freak.

[stirdgit]

Let's hear it for the freaks! I read the original Dune once a year and I have read GEoD four times. I have read the entire series only twice but... I think it is time I read it again as it seems there are a few details I have forgotten or missed the first and second times around.

Leto, thanks for your help.

[Foxbat]

Every two or three years I re-read the whole series. If that makes me a freak then so be it

I think the reason why I keep going back is because it's such a rich universe of ideas that there is always something more to glean from Herbert's words.

[Tim Bond]

You mention Odrede and other her memories Leto.

Did you know that they recently found that many of the various neurological centers within the brain actualy possess histones that depending on how the impulses of the brain function/output works with the mechanics of it all (directed by our thoughts to some extent) actualy interact directly and may be able to possibly even change independent and isolated portions of DNA specific to those centers. This DNA is actualy set aside upon generation and seperated from the rest of the DNA chain and is specific to the neural center you look at.

You receive your DNA from your ancestors - parents.

Where does 'real' memory get stored?

Why do some people carry such deep control over supposedly involentary functions? And what about spontanious disease remission, or sudden changes in physical capacity that defy explanation?

What about temporal indeterminism and the real Heizzenburg effect in the non-linear organization of events in our world called quantum mechanics all clearly outlined in modern science coupled with the awareness of the very real limitations of linear thinking detrimentaly and tyranicaly abused when applied to rediculous assumption beyond its minimal application?

What happens when the knowhow of building is obtained, bridges then erected, and crossed freely?