Is Catelyn Dead??

[NarkyTheNarkster]

This was always a topic of confusion for me. We all knows what happens at the end of ASoS, The Kingswood Brotherhood (thats their name right? Wow I really need to reread this) kills a couple of the Frey's, with the help of Catelyn, but is Catelyn actually still alive, or is it her ghost that joins them? I remember a line in the book saying that she had a big gash on her throat, in which case it would have been almost impossible to survive. Any thoughts?

[Direwolf]

It seemed pretty clear to me that the Freys killed her by slitting her throat, and dumped her body in the river. I think Tywin said as much at some point. Thoros and co. then found her body washed ashore, and Thoros brought her back the same way he's brought back Beric so many times.

[Frey Slayer]

Life was put back into her in some fashion the same way Beric had been kept alive this whole time. The Red Priest, whose name escapes me at the moment, was doing it through some ritualistic magic.

[Princess Ivy]

my understanding here is that it was the direwolf that brought her back to life?

[Jay]

It seemed pretty clear to me that the Freys killed her by slitting her throat, and dumped her body in the river. I think Tywin said as much at some point. Thoros and co. then found her body washed ashore, and Thoros brought her back the same way he's brought back Beric so many times.

Pretty much my understanding as well. Did I miss some intended mystery through my dozen rereads?

[I, Brian]

I'm still hoping it's a false alarm.

With Catelyn's chapters, I am an observer of someone observing, rather than a part of the story itself - which has been a point of criticism.

[Raven]

Cat is as 'alive' as Beric. GRRM has said there will be no more Cat POV chapters, which 'may tell us something'. He clearly doesn't want to reveal too much about the nature of Thoros' resurrection: its effects on that person, whether they are or feel truly alive, etc.

edit to add: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/SSM02c.html

(hansenka) Secondly - the introduction of a revived Cat in the epilogue caused some dispute on the board. (BTW, after a few awkward meanderings on what exactly to call this 'revenant', we've dubbed her 'UnCat'. ;o) Some thought it was fine, some thought it cheapens the plot to use this device. And some, like myself, would withhold judgement, until we see where you're going with this character. My question is whether Cat is exactly the same person now as she was just before her throat was cut (beyond the physical deterioriation, I mean), or whether she has changed.

(GRRM) Death does change a person. No, I do not think Catelyn is as she was, no more than Lord Beric...

And by the way, there will no Catelyn POVs in future volumes, which may tell you something.

[gigi]

I find it odd that the Lord of LIght can bring Catelyn back from the dead, but he can't fix her vocal cords so could speak again. Hrumph. Wussy God.

[red_temple]

Gods work in mysterious ways - perhaps there's a reason she is unable to speak. It certainly makes her a lot more scary.

[Boaz]

Originally Posted by NarkyTheNarkster

Is Catelyn Dead??

We can only wish.

[gigi]

Catelyn is awesome. I like her chapters better than Jon's.

[Boaz]

I like everyone's chapters better than Jon's.

Here is my perspective on Catelyn.

She tells Jon that she wishes he'd been hurt instead of Bran. This shows here undeniable spiteful side. Instead of working things out with her husband, she absolves Ned of all wrong in fathering Jon and she pours out all her venom and pain towards Jon.

She neglects all her children and husband when Bran is injured. Here she really starts to show here self-centeredness. She claims it's all about Bran, but it's not... it's about her. Her hurt, her pain, her misery. She begs Ned to stay with her after she pushed him out the door so that she could be the Hand's Hand.

When Summer saves her and Bran, it becomes evident that she has a propensity towards mental instability.

Then she abandons Rickon and leaves the North in the hands of her 15 year old son. A brilliant plan! Her arrogance in believing that only she could deliver this message is unbelievable.

Next, she falls back under Littlefinger's spell. She loved his attention when she was younger and she still did as a married mother of five. Lyssa was right, Cat was a self-centered attention whore.

She plunges the realm into chaos by kidnapping Tyrion. This action directly results in the deaths of her husband and Robb, the captivity of Sansa, and the exiles of Arya, Bran, and Rickon... not to mention the deaths of tens of thousands in the war. Oh, well done little Cat!

Then she lets Lyssa steal Tyrion. Brilliant!

Then she goes to Robb's army, continuing to neglect her obligation and resposibility to Rickon. She feels guilty for neglecting her father and brother for the last 15 years, so she decides to make up for it. It is obvious that she is only reinforcing her poor decision making and her pattern of neglect that she learned as a child.

So after losing a Lannister brother, she proceeds to loose the second. This was the highest treason! Robb took off Karstark's head for his treason, but he barely says a word to his mother... and she thinks this is normal! She never expected to be punished. Again Catelyn shows her willful disobedience and self-centeredness. Her own misery is what she cherishes.

She continually treats her adult brother as a little child. She anguished over her father's passing. But her egotistical nature does not allow her to really grieve or care for her lost and scattered children.

When her fantasy world is finally destroyed with Robb's murder, she goes insane. Think about how Robb, Sansa, and Bran all lived in their own fantasy worlds. They were Tullys to the bone and she taught them to live for themselves and to not face reality. Arya, the one who is a true Stark, was the one (Bran is too young, but it seems he has trouble dealing with reality as well) who can deal with hard truths... just like Jon and Tyrion.

To the end she clung to her false duty, family and honor. She covered her greed with self-righteuosness. In the days of Sansa's songs, she'd have been a great mother, but the harsh realities of intrigue and war exposed her deficiencies and inadequacies as a mother.

The three mothers we see in ASOIAF, Catelyn, Cersei, and Lyssa make me wonder about GRRM's own childhood and his over all concept of motherhood.

Catelyn was a horrible person not even deserving of our pity.

[WinterIsComing]

Excellent! I knew there was a reason she drove me crazy, and you have found the words for me.

Thanks.

[gigi]

Goodness Boaz, I'm surprized that you don't also blame her for the Others invasion. You act like she's a devil come to rip Westeros apart.

Catelyn is a nice person and a good mother who does the best that she can in a series of dire situations.

[Direwolf]

Originally Posted by Boaz

Catelyn was a horrible person not even deserving of our pity.

I must respectfully disagree. I think she was definitely a bit unstable, but I think she did the best she could, and unfortunately made a string of really bad decisions. Her kidnapping of Tyrion was especially poor judgement, but it's not like the bad blood between Lannisters and Starks began there. It began even before Jaime pushed Bran out of the tower window.

Also, her kidnapping of Tyrion had little to do with Ned's death. When Ned found out that Joffrey was not a legitimate heir to the throne (a discovery Cat had nothing to do with), he became a marked man. They were planning to have Gregor kill him earlier in the story, but Jaime's hit squad forced Ned to send Beric as executioner in his stead, briefly delaying the inevitable.

All in all, she was overwhelmed by a very difficult and very complicated situation. She made bad decisions, but was smart enough to realize it afterwards, which made it worse. She was at the center of a long, drawn-out tragedy (parially of her own creation), and I felt a lot of sympathy for her. I've made my own bad decisions in life; I've only been lucky enough to avoid such horrible consequences.