Alternate history scenarios: What if?

[Harpo]

I like considering the alternate histories, especially those which hinge on one person before later important events in their lives.

In the early 30s Winston Churchill was knocked down by a taxi.
When Alexander The Great was younger he was almost killed in battle.

Both of those might have died, but instead they later changed history.
When Ogadai (ruler of the Mongols and third son of Ghenghis Khan) died, the Mongols ceased their unstoppable advance westward. They would have destroyed many of the great European cities, and who knows how much of our culture would never have existed?
The Mongols went home and elected a new leader, after which they turned their attentions on China.

[Ozymandias]

I love this kind of stuff, especially the alternate histories set in Victoria era England It's a period of time has it's own unique feel. I love it. Western civ. was advancing so rapidly (at least as far as technology was concerned. They were still backwards as hell when it came to race relations). At the same time there was also the grimy, sooty industrial hellhole of lower class London. The dark side of progress.

STEAMPUNK!

[carrie221]

I have a degree in history so I kinda like it to begin with but I find a lot of these ideas very interesting. History could have been so different so easily.

[genisis2]

Originally Posted by Quokka

Has anyone read The years of salt and rice? I enjoyed Kim Stanley Robinson's Red Mars series but so far havent read this. It's a what if story, where the black plaque wipes out 99% of the european population, meaning no renaissance, industrial revolution etc. Asia and the middle eastern influences begin to dominate in exploration and invention. Just curious if anyone has read it and what they thought of it?

An excellent book!!! I encourage you to read it. Lost my copy a while ago . I have buy it again and reread it.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Ozymandias

I love this kind of stuff, especially the alternate histories set in Victoria era England.

I'm currently reading The Difference Engine by William Gibson and Bruce Sterling. I'm surprised that no one else has mentioned Steampunk yet in this thread. The idea that Lord Byron did not die in Greece and that Charles Babbage was able to build the Analytical Engine he had designed, so driving a steam-powered infomation-technology revolution that happened 100 years early is exactly the kind of idea you are throwing around, and I also love it.

What should I read next Ozymandias?

Also I haven't read anything by him myself, but I've heard Harry Turtledove's books explore similar themes of Alternative History to the military histories you have been discussing.

[carrie221]

Originally Posted by Dave

Also I haven't read anything by him myself, but I've heard Harry Turtledove's books explore similar themes of Alternative History to the military histories you have been discussing.

I just finished Harry Turtledove's "Days of Infamy" and its sequel "End of the Begining". The idea is that in WW2 that Japan invaded Hawaii after the air attack and it is quite interesting.

[mosaix]

The meterorite not striking 65 million years ago certainly gives food for thought.

However a more recent event (well 2,000 years ago) - what if the tomb hadn't been empty on the third day?

[mosaix]

On a more general point, I've recently been reading a few books and the subject of writing Science Fiction. Some of these books have sections on 'Recurring Themes'. One of the themes discussed is 'Alternative History'. All in all it seems to come in for a lot of criticism, some editors are totally fed up with it.

[Ozymandias]

Originally Posted by Dave

What should I read next Ozymandias?

Well, after you get done with the Difference Engine I suggest you should read the ultimate in steampunk: Alan Moore's League of Extraordinary Gentlemen volumes I and II. It's a graphic novel (comic book) and I'm not sure if your'e into that medium but a lot of neat and exciting things come out of that field. Oh, and if you have had the misfortune of watching the big screen adaptation of the series, DO NOT let it dissaude you from reading the source material! It is miles away from Alan Moore's vision. After that you might want to rent Steamboy, It's a gorgeously animated film that happens, unfortunately, to be weak on writing, plot, and character development but chock full of breathtaking visuals and cool steam-powered gadgets.

And after that, you might consider reading (though I'm almost certain you already have, being a science-fiction fan) the original Victorian science-fiction: The works of H.G. Wells, Jules Verne, and Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.

[Dave]

Thanks, I have seen the film, 'The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen' and I didn't find it that bad, but I have read many times that it is not a patch on the graphic novels.

Steamboy I saw in a shop and almost bought once but something stopped me, I will find it again.

I have read most HG Wells. I particularly liked 'When the Sleeper Awakes' which is not steampunk as it is set in the future, but I think is a very overlooked book by him. Jules Verne I am familiar with from the various films but haven't read much. Conan Doyle - I have read Sherlock Holmes, but not 'The Lost World'.

If you class those as steampunk, then you must also include Henry Rider Haggard's 'She' and 'King Solomon's Mines'?

[C. Craig R. McNeil]

I'm a big fan of alternative history and have gone to the extreme and mixed it in with a healthy dose of fantasy while writing my book, A Gathering of Storm Clouds. I've taken an idea of the British Empire discovering Atlantis in the dying years of the 19th Century and spun it out into a world where WW1 never happened because Britain dominates with magnificent mile long dreadnaughts.

Alternative history is a wonderfully fertile area that rewards active imaginations!

[Ozymandias]

Originally Posted by C. Craig R. McNeil

I'm a big fan of alternative history and have gone to the extreme and mixed it in with a healthy dose of fantasy while writing my book, A Gathering of Storm Clouds. I've taken an idea of the British Empire discovering Atlantis in the dying years of the 19th Century and spun it out into a world where WW1 never happened because Britain dominates with magnificent mile long dreadnaughts.

Alternative history is a wonderfully fertile area that rewards active imaginations!

That sounds like a very interesting premise. Brilliant, in fact. I look forward to reading it.

I myself am writing a "Steampunk" novel. It concerns the adventures of Artemis Appleby, a Holmesian detective, and his son. I'm writing it as children's book because I feel the genre of steampunk is woefully underrepresented in children's literature. There are so many possiblities with this genre! It's high adventure with a capital H!

[j. d. worthington]

Originally Posted by Dave

Jules Verne I am familiar with from the various films but haven't read much. Conan Doyle - I have read Sherlock Holmes, but not 'The Lost World'.

On Verne -- be sure to find someone who knows the more recent translations, as I found out while working at a bookstore that nearly all English translations of Verne deviate considerably from the original (a long story for another time), and only in the last 5 years or so have truly faithful translations been done ... in many cases some of his most famous works have, according to those who've read the originals, "yet to be read in English". On Conan Doyle, there are several other things by him that would classify as sf ... in fact, these were gathered together, I believe, into a couple of collections -- edited, I think, by John Brunner(?), with the possible exception of the other Professor Challenger stories, some of which were gathered together in an older collection, The Poison Belt.

[Inquirer]

This speculation came to mind recently:

What if the Battle of Manzikert had been won by the Byzantines instead of the Seljuk turks?
That battle was one of those decisive military events. The defeat suffered by the Byzantines cost them Anatolia (their military and economic heartland). In the past, they had been to able to successfully respond to the challenge posed by the rise of Islam -- but this defeat was of such an order of magnitude that they simply couldn't recover.
Further, and more to my speculation, that defeat was one of the great drivers for the subsequent Crusades.

Assuming (by no means automatically), that a victory at Manzikert would have kept the Seljuks at bay, then the impetus for the start of Crusades is diminished.
Even if the urge was there, it would have taken the approval and aid of the Byzantines -- and it unclear that they would have. To let a foreign army travel through their territory with the goal of conquering territories that they considered historically theirs, an army comprised of people who were not under the secular and religious authory of Constantinople? Whatever advantages that the Byzantines would have gained in terms would have to weighed against the profound political issues.

If the Crusades don't occur, then what? Does the Byzantine Empire survive and continue to flourish for many centuries more? (The tragedy of the 4th crusade which effectively wreaked the surviving rump state doesn't happen). What happens to the Seljuks if they don't conquer Anatolia (besides not having the rise of the Ottomans)? What happens when the Mongols arrive in the Middle East? What happens in Western Europe without the influence of the Crusades? Lots of questions - all arising from a battle that few know of...

[mightymem]

What about if the Ottomans were not defeated at Vienna or the Moorish empire was not destroyed in Southern Spain