Alternate history scenarios: What if?

[Stalker]

Originally Posted by kyektulu

What if communism hadn't occured in the Russia?

Both Ukraine and Russia would have been the EU Member States by now... Poor USA!

[Stalker]

Originally Posted by littlemissattitude

A couple of things. First, this:
That's a really interesting idea, Stalker. But my own favorite idea along these lines is, what would happen if some archaeologist found the remains of Neanderthals somewhere in North America, in a context that made it clear that the bones had not been planted and were not just a pathological modern human. That's a story idea I've been playing around with for some time.

Dan Brown plays with similar ideas in his Deception Point. BTW, the idea of Neanderthals in America is not new, and here I refer to The Encyclopaedia of Science Fiction, John Clute and Peter Nicholls, and particularly, to its entry concerning Alternate histories.

Originally Posted by littlemissattitude

And, way back near the beginning of this thread, someone wondered what would have happened if Martin Luther had tacked up the 95 theses somewhere other than where he did. Specifically, it would be interesting to explore the idea of what might have happened if he had taken them to Rome and tacked them up on the doors to the Pope's apartments.

Could he do that and he would have become a martyr, 'cos, no doubt, he ould have been burnt on the fire of Holy Inquisition.

[Taltos]

Originally Posted by Stalker

Both Ukraine and Russia would have been the EU Member States by now... Poor USA!

Nope. The Russia would still be monarchistic, have a strong aristocracy lead military force and be the leader of degenerate Europe ... at least such seems to be the view of russian SF authors (Rybakov, Zvjagintsev, Lazartchuk etc.)

This Alternate history is a strong trend in modern russian SF. They write also about what would have happened if the Soviet Union didn't fall, what would have happened Stalin was not the head of the state when the second WW started, what would have happened if the mongols hadn't invaded russian territories etc.

The last idea is very nicely done by duet of authors hiding under the name of Holm van Zaitchik.

[dwndrgn]

Originally Posted by Stalker

India was probably too isolated and self-content to use all trade benefits from all its resources. The ancient stagnating society... The British were not overburdened with superstitions and were too agressive to miss such a lovely piece of cake...

I think probably their infrastructure wouldn't have supporded a world-wide trade empire but it would be a fun idea to play with. Perhaps change history a little more - if they could kick out the Brits, couldn't they take on some of their better ideas and move forward with that. Add in some fantastic minds to come up with some unique new ways of exploiting their own goods...it would be a fun one to play with. The could spread their ideals and superstitions all over the place. Just imagine, with this scenario, it is possible that India could colonize the Americas...that would be so much fun to play with!

[Stalker]

BTW, Taltos, if it's not a secret, where are you from? You seem to know much of Russian Sci-fi as noone else here. Just curious.

[Stalker]

Originally Posted by dwndrgn

I think probably their infrastructure wouldn't have supporded a world-wide trade empire but it would be a fun idea to play with. Perhaps change history a little more - if they could kick out the Brits, couldn't they take on some of their better ideas and move forward with that. Add in some fantastic minds to come up with some unique new ways of exploiting their own goods...it would be a fun one to play with. The could spread their ideals and superstitions all over the place. Just imagine, with this scenario, it is possible that India could colonize the Americas...that would be so much fun to play with!

Well, probably... but to do that they should have abolished the system of varnas (castes) to become more open and that was what they never cared to do. But your point is quite interesting and need further development. What breakthrough (cultural or technical) would let India come out of the isolated and stagnating cultural environment it appeared in the midieval time?

[Taltos]

Originally Posted by Stalker

BTW, Taltos, if it's not a secret, where are you from? You seem to know much of Russian Sci-fi as noone else here. Just curious.

Former member state of Soviet Union ... same as yourself

[Stalker]

One more Ukrainian here? Glad to hear that!
Now I understand...
You are right and that nostalgy about old-kind timer of Father-Czar and attepts to replay the events of Civil war to the benefit of the White Movement, the attempts to review the beginning of the WW2 (a very interesting recent novel here is Fyodor Berezin's "Red Stars" (Krasnye zvyozdy) and Anisimov's "Option "BIS" (Variant "BIS"))
By the way I also like Lazarchuk's works in colaboration with Mikhail Uspensky in so called "cryptohistory" subgenre.
The "monster" of modern post-Soviet cryptohistory is Andrei Valentinov from Kharkov with his "The Eye of Power" series. Recently, I've read his novel The Frontier (Rubezh) written in colabnouration with HL Oldie and kievites Dyachenko - a very interesting work merging cryptohistory with alternate history and folk-fantasy.

[Taltos]

Originally Posted by Stalker

One more Ukrainian here? Glad to hear that!
Now I understand...

nope. i feared, that you might interpret the last message this way. I'm from another former state

Originally Posted by Stalker

beginning of the WW2 (a very interesting recent novel here is Fyodor Berezin's "Red Stars" (Krasnye zvyozdy) and Anisimov's "Option "BIS" (Variant "BIS"))

the first one is about ,5 years old and the other 2 years, if my memory serves me correctly, and the "zvjozdnyi labirint" books are almost impossible to get, once they have been out of print for 6 months. SO I lucked out in getting these two.

Originally Posted by Stalker

By the way I also like Lazarchuk's works in colaboration with Mikhail Uspensky in so called "cryptohistory" subgenre.

These are good, but I think the best is his "sturmfogel"

Originally Posted by Stalker

The "monster" of modern post-Soviet cryptohistory is Andrei Valentinov from Kharkov with his "The Eye of Power" series. Recently, I've read his novel The Frontier (Rubezh) written in colabnouration with HL Oldie and kievites Dyachenko - a very interesting work merging cryptohistory with alternate history and folk-fantasy.

I've read all of the "Eye" books, and to put the classifications in order, I think they are called secret history, not crypto history. The difference being that in crypto, some event or thing is changed, in secret history the things are the same, but some unnatural/mysticakl forces are in work. Valentinov is really good in his field AFAIK his a historian, his "Dezertir" about french revolution and "Nebesa likujut" about Ukraine history are also worth reading. With "Rubesh" I'll have to agree, this is a good mix of gernes, although a bit too many authors (5)

[dwndrgn]

Originally Posted by Stalker

Well, probably... but to do that they should have abolished the system of varnas (castes) to become more open and that was what they never cared to do. But your point is quite interesting and need further development. What breakthrough (cultural or technical) would let India come out of the isolated and stagnating cultural environment it appeared in the midieval time?

steam

[Stalker]

Originally Posted by dwndrgn

steam

Interesting, but can you, please, find any preconditions for that in Indian history? The other question is how it's gonna work to change the Indian society inside because you should agree that when you introduce a single change, it somehow will result in whole series of changes in other spheres...
Well, I myself need to think a little more...

[Stalker]

Well, India her loos like the same isolated and self-content society as China.
Look, Chinese invented almost everything the Europeans re-invented much later: industrial paper-making, iron works of a quality the European only achieved in 17th century, gunpowder, kites, silk, missiles (rocketry), compass etc...
In 15th century (40 years before Columbus) they sent the sea expedition consisting of military ships, transports and exploration ships - over 200 units! The flagship was so huge that it could use caravels Columbus used in his expeditions as life-boats. They visited Indonesia, Philippines, India and Persia. Then they also visited Eastern African shore and everywhere they faught and traded.
It's amazing, it's a historical paradox why China remained isolated after that being the largest by population, most technically and culturally advanced, the strongest in military terms (potentially)?
The explanation rests on social reasons. The society was immobile and stagnating. It was no driving force inside the society, and multiple limitations and regulations only supressed the further progress. Maybe, the same is with India.

[Stalker]

Originally Posted by Taltos

These are good, but I think the best is his "sturmfogel"
I've read all of the "Eye" books, and to put the classifications in order, I think they are called secret history, not crypto history. The difference being that in crypto, some event or thing is changed, in secret history the things are the same, but some unnatural/mysticakl forces are in work. Valentinov is really good in his field AFAIK his a historian, his "Dezertir" about french revolution and "Nebesa likujut" about Ukraine history are also worth reading. With "Rubesh" I'll have to agree, this is a good mix of gernes, although a bit too many authors (5)

What is the difference? Cryptos may be translated from Greek as "hidden", "concealed" or even "secret". Valentinov in one of his articles suggests particularly "cryptohistory" that means that such genre narrates the events that might have happen behind the scenes of official history, in hidden. As in the alternate history, here you also have wide space for speculations. And unnatural forces are left up to the author to use them in his story irrespectively of the genre.

[Taltos]

Originally Posted by Stalker

What is the difference? Cryptos may be translated from Greek as "hidden", "concealed" or even "secret". Valentinov in one of his articles suggests particularly "cryptohistory" that means that such genre narrates the events that might have happen behind the scenes of official history, in hidden. As in the alternate history, here you also have wide space for speculations. And unnatural forces are left up to the author to use them in his story irrespectively of the genre.

Sorry, my black I was in a hurry and thought about the title of this thread instead of your post. What I wanted to write was that Valentinov is not very well suited for this thread as his secret/crypto (which basicly mean the same, I was "word blind" and tried to explain too much, which sometimes happens with me) histories aren't alternative history, as most of the historical events he is describing actually happened (OK, the "dhars" probably weren't present, but who knows ).

[Jaggy Jai]

Doesnt anyone else think its weird how we always associate alternative history with The Third Reich, perhaps because its still fresh in our heads, perhaps because deep down some people think the world would be a better place? If its the latter than it is quite scary?
Perhaps someone can help me here though? I remember seeing a short comic from Japan, it depicted the fall of the U.S to imperial Japanese forces and the invasion over there instead. Does anyone know of this, or if it may have been based on a short story or novel from Japan?
My dream alternative world however is a fantasy world where Great Britain had its own Revolution and ended the tyrannical rule of the monarchy!