Alternate history scenarios: What if?

[Stalker]

Originally Posted by Winters_Sorrow

Romans weren't renowned horsemen in either case - they mostly used cavarly auxilla and more often than not, used allied horse rather than romans as such.

Precisely! All ancient people used cavalry as auxiliary troops. That's no wonder - they didn't know stirrup! Remember, they weren't renown seamen either untill such a necessity arose during Punic wars against Carthagenians.
In the second centurt AD, however, they started shoing interest in cataphracts - Ancien analogue of heavy cavalry, but, again, those lacked stirrup.

Originally Posted by Winters_Sorrow

And my point was, that when Rome was top dog many people wanted Roman citizenship & associated benefits (it was the only way to get power & wealth for many) but once the rot set in - not many stuck around to be part of the losing side. Hence the abandonment of all elements of "Roman-ness" (sp? ) and the loss of learning and education that went along with it.

That was my point why I chose 2nd century AD. The peak of Rome both as military and cultural power, and after that there was only regress. So, the logic chain was: stirrup - Roman military aristocracy transforms into Chivalry (Land aristocracy) - Roman castles all over Europe - establishment of new cultural and trade centres on barbaric lands that gradually transform into new national cultural centres - splitting of Roman Empire into several national (Roman speaking) kingdoms no later that in 4th century. Christianity is adopted by major parts of these kingdoms no ooner as in the end of 4th, or early 5th century.

Originally Posted by Winters_Sorrow

The bigger issue I think was that, because there was no-one to replace the Roman Empire when it fell (the barbarians often fought each other as much as they did Rome) the state of pretty much constant low-level warfare did not allow the luxury of time or learning to be pursued. Indeed, even in "Roman Britain" which was fairly isolated and in theory should have survived, there was a loss of control and things disintergrated into feuding warlords again.

The cultural succession of Rome - the only thing that could have prevented or diminished Dark Ages is total literacy. As you probably know, Rome could boast by almost total literacy (about 75% of population in old provinces). That's a critical point. New kingdoms that arose on the ruins of Rome had population that spoke a strange mixure of Latin and local barbaric dialects - these were not langualges untill 10th centuries and thus could not be expressed by letters. Latin as a literate language preserved only in small Christian anclaves of culture (monasteries) and those were NOT enouch to keep all small fragments of knowledge remaining from Rome.

Originally Posted by Winters_Sorrow

A bigger what if could have been - what if Roman Britain had remained united and organised after the fall of Rome. It could have withstood the viking invasions and possibly the Britons would have remained Celtic rather than Anglo-Saxon as later...

Ha! When the 6th legion left England, nobody could protect Hadrian's wall and the hordes of uncivilised Picts poured into Britons' lands. King Arthur and his champions were simply unable to last long. Not without Romans! Saxons also knew that and in early 6th century envaded Britain, then Juts and Angles - everybody wanted to have his piece of a Christmas pie which was Britain! But for the Roman troops' departure, Britons would have had enough time to build the kingdom of their own.

[FelineEyes]

Wow.
I think I learned more from reading that post that I did in Western Civilization 1.

[Stalker]

Next potion of what ifs:
1. Mongols headed by Timujin (Chingiz Khan) had never come to Europe and smashed Russ.
2. In 14th century, the ruler of China, Kubla Khan sent the expedition on huge Chinese junks to see what lands lie beyond Japan. After the Wind of Gods (kamikadze) helped the Japanese to give a hard leak to Mongols. Supposedly, the ships went to the Sea of Okhotsk, along Kuril islands, then goes Kamchatka, Bering straights. Then Alaska and the whole new continent yet to be discovered. The ships were lost but what if they had managed to reach America? (the idea is taken from Paul Andersson's Time Patrol but he never developed it).
3. Admiral Yamamoto had added certain details to his plan of assault of Pearl Harbor, and Vice-Admiral Chiochi Nagumo not only ruined with his Zero planes US Naval Base at Pearl Harbor but carried out operation of landing troops and was able to occupy Oahu, Maui and all the rest of Hawaii. That would prevent Enterprise's aircarrier fleet from safe return from maneuvres. I don't know if American carriers were able to reach San-Diego or Manila or any other American-held port in Pacific with the fuel they had. If no...
4. There was no Battle of Gravellines, and Spanish Armada ('La felicissima armada" landed safely its horrible troops on the British soil.
5. When Europeans open America, Homo Neanderthalis dominates the lands discovered. In general, it's a very interesting to speculate on topic of co-existance of two intelligent species on Earth.
Choose any of scenarios suggested or propose one of your own, and let's discuss it!

[Animaiden]

Originally Posted by FelineEyes

Wow.
I think I learned more from reading that post that I did in Western Civilization 1.

So did I

[Stormflame]

Alternate History...hmm.

-
Wonder if Adolf Hitler had never died in that bunker. Wonder if the Allied bombings had not taken effect. Wonder if the 'exterminations' had gone on and all the ethnicity had been ran out of Europe. Wonder if Hitler's regime had taken over as he had so planned and the 'hate' that birthed from his loins was multlipled and the world was cast into turmoil that none, not even Saddam, could have mustered or equaled. Imagine a world like that....

[PERCON]

I can't, that's because I've never experienced it and wouldn't want anyone to.

Anyway if Hitler hadn't died in the bunker he would have been killed by Einstein who had created a time machine to travel back and change history by killing Hitler keeping the world at peace. Don't know how Hitler died??? Now you do

PERCON

[Stalker]

Originally Posted by Stormflame

Alternate History...hmm.
Wonder if Adolf Hitler had never died in that bunker. Wonder if the Allied bombings had not taken effect. Wonder if the 'exterminations' had gone on and all the ethnicity had been ran out of Europe. Wonder if Hitler's regime had taken over as he had so planned and the 'hate' that birthed from his loins was multlipled and the world was cast into turmoil that none, not even Saddam, could have mustered or equaled. Imagine a world like that....

You've drown a very grim picture.
Hitler feared that should he be caught by Stalin, the latter would put him to the cage and demonstrate to people like a beast. So, the beast he was. Pile up being Nazies over German methodicalness and you'll get a perfect machine for destruction. In that case Jews and Gipsies simply had no chance of survival. Having finished with them, Germans would no doubt would begin to clean the other European nations starting from Slavs, whose majority also according to Fuehrer Schiekelgruber (Hitler) was also subject to extermination. Remember The Man in the High Castle by PKD? We can set out even more terrible scenarios here.
I don't know how idea od hollow earth and Moon of Ice correlated in Nazies' mind with rocketry, it's only terrifies me to imagine Werner von Braun's toys flying earth orbits not by American stars but bearing swastikas on their hulls.

[PERCON]

There's always one. Hitler was that one, hopefully there won't be anymore.
Somehow I don't believe that'll ever be the case, unfortunately.

We now need a new 'what if'.

hmmmmmm.....

[Stormflame]

Wonder if the Americas had never been stumbled upon. It is a logical thought that Europe and that area would be over filled with people. Imagine the mess.

On another hand, if the same thoughts and intellect had not entered into the Americas from the European area, imagine how different the inventions and innovations would have been had the indians, aztecs, and mayas and the rest, would have been allowed to grow on their own. Their expertize could be far ahead of our own today, or waaayyy behind.
The population of the Americas would be souly pure native blood and probably full like now, or perhaps, empty and desolate had their races died away. Imagining the outcomes are endless....

[Rahl Windsong]

One of my favorite "what if" author's is Harry Harrison http://www.harryharrison.com/.



Rahl

[Stalker]

One of the most interesting Harrison's works in alternate history beside The West of Eden is The Hammer and the Cross series written in colabouration with John Holm that tells breathtaking story of opposition between Christianity and unified pagan North Europe headed by the ex-slave, Shef. Strongly advise that you read it.

[Stalker]

Originally Posted by Stormflame

Wonder if the Americas had never been stumbled upon. It is a logical thought that Europe and that area would be over filled with people. Imagine the mess.

On another hand, if the same thoughts and intellect had not entered into the Americas from the European area, imagine how different the inventions and innovations would have been had the indians, aztecs, and mayas and the rest, would have been allowed to grow on their own. Their expertize could be far ahead of our own today, or waaayyy behind.
The population of the Americas would be souly pure native blood and probably full like now, or perhaps, empty and desolate had their races died away. Imagining the outcomes are endless....

I already mentioned it above. Imagine aztecs discovering Europe instead of otherise. These great indian civilisations were in some areas far ahead of Europeans, but where they were behind is metallurgy. They never discovered iron working so they appeared defenceless when faced the iron-clad cuttthroats lead by Hernando Cortez and Francisco Pissarro riding terrible horses. But I am in terror when try to imagine bloodthirsty Aztecs mastering iron when they will try to invade Europe.
Taking suppostition that Indians learned iron working, it becomes an extremely interesting topic because in that case we may whitness the rise of at least three great Empires in both Americas: Anahuak - the Aztec Empire whose borders come up to Rio Grande or even farter north, and in the south they stretch to Panama; The Great Union of Iroquis initially having republican rule but probably by the 19th century transforming into Empire. Its territory stretches far to all sides of Canada, down to Virginian "brothers" Cherokee or even farther south to the swapms of Florida. The Delavers are assimilated. Proud Hurons have been forced into the Union. The Missisipi is the natural border of the above Empire. Farther west there are barbarians, Dakota, Shawnee, Apache, and Aztec-fed Camanche and Navaho who bring trouble to south-western border of the Great Iroquis Union. I think that Iroquis might have become the leading force of the American civilisations and had all chances to be much more friendly to Europeans than all other American Empires.
And, finally, Tihuantisuyu, the Land of Four Corners of the World, the Empire of Inkas. This Empire carries out Isolationistic policy, and expands to Mid Chile where borders on the Kingdom of Araukans. The Inkas have finally started using wheel due to side trade with the rest of the world, and their highways in Ands work extremely efficient. The Great Inka Pachakuti Yupanki IV ( ) rules all the lands around Titikaka and down the selvas of the Amazon, and up to Venezuela and Surinam.
What is with Maya? Sorry, seems they are completely destroyed by Aztecs and the hearts of their leaders burned long ago on top of the teokalli (sp?) of Uiztilopochtli (sp?) and Teskatlepoka (sp?).
Your ideas, suggestions to continue or to argue all above?

[PERCON]

I personally haven't got much knowledge in the area of aztecs but I am now wonderering what if they had discovered iron working, and gone on to rule across the globe, would humanity be further ahead of where it is now, or behind?

I've always been interested in 'what if's' where events could have changed the way humanity developed.

I'd like to hear anyone's thoughts on this...

PERCON

[iratebeaver]

Hmmmm...... HHHHmmmmmmmmmmMM....aha!Imagine if the Egyptians had conquered the world and we all worshipped the Egyptians' Gods.

[Leto]

Could be worse, at least those gods didn't ask for regular human sacrifice. And I wouldn't mind worshipping cats.