Who is Alain?

[Lacedaemonian]

I assume that the silence is verdict - my hypothesis is crap.

[Alia]

Nope, it's not crap.... I have been waiting and didn't see it... sorry

I think he might be a descendant, but not an actual child of Radegundis and Tallifer. And I don't see how you get the Lady of Battles connection through. I need examples.
Do you know about the time travel? Are you into the 4th book yet?


Out of all of that I do agree that he MAY be the new Daisan... but what will he save everyone from?????

[Lacedaemonian]

What did Daisian save them from? What did Jesus save us from? Nothing. They were simply the living embodiment of a moral code.

I know nothing of the travel. I simply assume that he could be born into another time.

The connection between Radegundis and the Lady of Battles - they are both Saints... I do think that there is a family connection - a blood tie but I don't know enough about the Lady as yet.

There is a battle between the Church the Aoi and the Mathematici. Alain is the church. Liathe is the Mathematici. Sanglant is the Aoi. This seems to be the undercurrent of the story thus far. However, all three seem allied currently which goes against the puppet masters who wish to manipulate them.

[Alia]

I still don't see the connection between Radegundis and the Lady of Battles, yes I realize they are both saints... do you think that the saints all work together?

Moral Code... The arguement that snotty Tallia states is that the Diasan died for thier sins, much like christian beliefs. The church doesn't belive this at the moment. They had a counsel and decided against this. But there is a scroll that mentions it, Angus the frater mentioned in KD. If Alain is to be the new Diasan then what is he going to save the people from? Surely not their sins... The first Diasan did this...

And Lacey... where are you in the story?

[Lacedaemonian]

I get killed by an Eika in the Prince of Dogs.

[Alia]

What?

Oh, I understand... you don't want to talk about it. Okay... when your ready...

[AryaUnderfoot]

Originally Posted by Alia

I still don't see the connection between Radegundis and the Lady of Battles, yes I realize they are both saints... do you think that the saints all work together?

Moral Code... The arguement that snotty Tallia states is that the Diasan died for thier sins, much like christian beliefs. The church doesn't belive this at the moment. They had a counsel and decided against this. But there is a scroll that mentions it, Angus the frater mentioned in KD. If Alain is to be the new Diasan then what is he going to save the people from? Surely not their sins... The first Diasan did this...

And Lacey... where are you in the story?

I think what we're all forgetting here is that while the religion that Kate Elliot has created here mirrors Christianity in many ways, they are not one and the same. There is a possibility that in this religion the saints all work together (honestly, I don't think they'd work against each other- kind of counter-productive). There is also a possibility that the Blessed Daisan would not have to die only once for the sins of man. Who knows- maybe he/she would have to die once for man, once for Eika, once for Aoi, etc. etc. Perhaps that is what the Daisan is destined for- constant death and rebirth, constant sacrifice for sake of continually saving the weaker souls from themselves.

In addition, I believe it was mentioned somewhere in the 5th book (sorry don't have it with me right now, Alia, but I believe it is one of the voices that Alain hears) that Alain is there to save them all from something evil that is coming. What I gathered from that was that a sort of Anti-Christ was in the process of being created or had already been created, and he was there to stop it. I believe Tallia was somehow involved as well.

But beyond the classic "saving us from our sins" theme, there is also the fact that Alain has been instrumental in changing history, in so many ways. Perhaps he is simply there to ensure that certain events happen a certain way, like the Fool and Fitz in the Tawny Man trilogy by Robin Hobb. His role could be less akin to that of Christ than we think- it could have an element of the Grecian Myth in it as well, as simply the chosen one/tool of the Gods.

[Alia]

There is a possibility that in this religion the saints all work together (honestly, I don't think they'd work against each other- kind of counter-productive).

The thought I had was not working against each other, but rather each worked independantly of one another... they each did their own thing... I don't believe this true, it was merely a thought while reading Lacey's post. I think the saints all work toward the greater good.
Tallia is a pain in the arse... I think Tallia was merely used in order to get people to start thinking about the heresy religion and no more... (may she die a thousand terrible deaths) I think she went up and over when she denied Alain. I think maybe the plan was for the two of them to be together, but she became self absorbent and threw it away... I think Tallia will have minor roles, if any in the next books.

And I thought a lot about Earos's ideas about Alain just being pure of heart... Nay.. it's crap, Hanna has a pure heart too and she hasn't done anything like Alain.
Nope there is something special about Alain...

My thoughts about Alain is he is either half angel or half God...

[AryaUnderfoot]

Originally Posted by Alia

And I thought a lot about Earos's ideas about Alain just being pure of heart... Nay.. it's crap, Hanna has a pure heart too and she hasn't done anything like Alain.
Nope there is something special about Alain...

My thoughts about Alain is he is either half angel or half God...

Hanna hasn't done anything like Alain- yet. I think we can all agree that she does have an important role to play, however, especially with her ties to the Kerayit shaman.

What I love about these books is that not a single person's role is ever clearly defined. The mystery just continues throughout it all.

[Alia]

I'm not doubting Hanna's role in the story, Arya... I'm just saying that she has a pure heart, much like Alains, but she isn't performing miracles...

[Earos]

those were just some of my thoughts.... I still think of alain as a pure soul... Hanna may have a pure sould to some extent, but she was fooled by hugh... Alain wasn't...

Maybe what he does are miracles or maybe miracles happen when he is around... sort of an inderect thing, not power unto himself, but a conduit for power...

Or maybe he is a catalyst (Robin Hobb reference).... only he wasnt trained as an assassin from age 13...

Or maybe he is here to battle the "anti-christ" (althought the anti-christ may have negative conotations, if my memory serves, the anit-christ is the second coming of christ... only this time there will be a judgement passed).

Or maybe he is the blessed guy reborn and will be martyred for some reason...

I do not think he is magical or supernatural (at this time). I am more ready to believe that he is a tool of the divine as opposed to being divine himself...

LOL, when alia said she was interested in my ideas on the series, I was confused I thought my ideas were "crap" to begin with... So now that she has come to her senses and agrees with me... I almost feel disappointed... LOL

PS
sorry for my overlong absence, but the gender thread kinda put me off for a bit... That and my life has been rather hectic lately... I should be back trolling a bit more (mostly so I can defend my ideas! I love a good exchange of ideas and debate).

[Earos]

I think it's easier for people to think someone like Alain, blessed guy and even jesus as being divine in nature... It's kind of a slap in the face... It's like seeing what man could be (not perfect, because even jesus had his faults and made mistakes) and knowing the only difference between you and that person is the way you think and the effort the put in and maybe a "lucky" (used loosely here) break...

I know my shortcomings and they piss me off... once more, I know my shortcomings are part of what make me... me... The Ideal we hold ourselves to will always be somewhat out of reach... thats a good thing, it gives us a reason to wake up somedays...

Alain as a "normal", or simply "favored by the gods" type of guy is inspiring in a way... By slapping a magic or supernatural label on him... it cheapins him and his struggles... The way miss Elliott has written him... even if he turns out to be something other then pure of heart, he will have earned it... Not born with it like liath and sanglant...

So that is why I WANT to think of him the way I do... To me he is an Ideal... something I will never attain, but can strive for... like a role model of sorts... Kinda wierd being over 30 and looking in fantasy novels for role models, but I guess I am still a kid at heart now if I can only get rid of the grey hair! LOL

[Alia]

LOL, when alia said she was interested in my ideas on the series, I was confused I thought my ideas were "crap" to begin with... So now that she has come to her senses and agrees with me... I almost feel disappointed... LOL

Never did I say your ideas were 'crap'. It's actually taken me this long to think up a reason why it might not be possible. Yes, there is still that possiblity that your right, which I do believe you are, but I wanted to throw the Hanna thing out there to see what you thought. And see, now I'm going to stew on if Alain had ever been fooled... I think he has with the Count and being his son. (That's my first thought anyways) And btw, your idea holds a lot of merit... especially compared to Lacey's.

Or maybe he is here to battle the "anti-christ" (althought the anti-christ may have negative conotations, if my memory serves, the anit-christ is the second coming of christ... only this time there will be a judgement passed).

I read a passage in TBS sometime ago, that made me wonder if there isn't a hidden war that we are just catching glimpses of. A war of an anti-christ like figure, one that Alain was born to stop. This topic was talked about on Kate's forum too, but it really never went anywhere, if I remember right. (And it wasn't me who brought it up, it was Mac is Back) I think this is Alain's destiny... but I still have no clue as to his heritage. I'm still leaning toward half 'god' or 'angel'.

Alain as a "normal", or simply "favored by the gods" type of guy is inspiring in a way... By slapping a magic or supernatural label on him... it cheapins him and his struggles... The way miss Elliott has written him... even if he turns out to be something other then pure of heart, he will have earned it... Not born with it like liath and sanglant...

Do you really think that being born half 'god' would cheapen him? I think he deserves nothing less than that title personally, he has earned that. This is where I disagree with you, Earos. The only problem is, I can't find info to back up my theory and that's what bugs me. I'm sure when the last two books come out and you find out your right you'll be rubbing it in. And I will accept it with my head hung low... crying.

sorry for my overlong absence, but the gender thread kinda put me off for a bit... That and my life has been rather hectic lately... I should be back trolling a bit more (mostly so I can defend my ideas! I love a good exchange of ideas and debate).

I think the gender thread put everyone off... glad your back now though!

And one more thing... he does create miracles... There I do have proof of!

[kaneda]

This thread is one of the reasons why im going to persevere (sp?) with reading the prince of dogs!

[Alia]

Because you have to know, huh? It'll eat away at you until you figure it out!!!!
When I bought the books I didn't realize the series wasn't finished... I cried when I found out that there were going to be another book (now 2 more books). It's just so unfair...