Rome vs Sparta

[I, Brian]

So, it was suggested that the spartans would have easily defeated the Romans:

http://www.chronicles-network.net/fo...8&page=3&pp=15

I contend that the Romans of any period under any decent general would have defeated the Spartans under *any* Spartan general.

Point 1: Spartans were barely able to overcome the Athenians in the Peloponnesian War, and even then the Athenians helped the Spartans immeasurably by killing off their own generals at a whimsy (not least Socrates) and banishing others (such as Thucydides) through an ugly process of mob rule.

In fact, it wasn't the Spartan's military powress that won the Peloponessian War, but the Athenian's political denigration and subsequent funding of doomed whimiscal expeditions and subsequent poor military planning.

Point 2: The Romans, with proper discipline under a proper general (ie, Julius Caesar, Scipio, etc) would have defeated most any contemporary army - additionally, whilst the Romans never won every single battle they fought, they will brilliantly resourceful and many times able to come from military defeat in a single battle, to complete military victory of an entire campaign.

Discuss...

[Alexa]

"Any" spartan general against "any" roman general ? I don't know, Brian. It's notoriuosly recognized spartans life was only discipline, self-denial and simplicity. They were practically all their life soldiers. Spartans make me think at mercenaries (sp ?) nowadays.

[Leto]

No discussion. In the 2nd century BC, Sparta was absorbed by Rome's legions.
IMO, more than pure military technics what went in favour of Roma was its administrative and economic skills.

[Lacedaemonian]

Originally Posted by Leto

No discussion. In the 2nd century BC, Sparta was absorbed by Rome's legions.
IMO, more than pure military technics what went in favour of Roma was its administrative and economic skills.

In the 2nd century BC Sparta was nothing. When you consider that Thermopylae was 480 BC, and marked the begining of the end of Sparta. Put 300 Roman soldiers in the pass of Thermopylae back in 480 BC, I would give them hours if not minutes.

[I, Brian]

People always make a point of there being a few hundred Spartans - but don't forget the 10,000-15,000 allies (inc. Thespians) who supported the Spartans.

In similar instances, 300 Romans under a decent commander would have probably done even better.

[Lacedaemonian]

Don't be stupid. The Romans would not have lasted a single day. The Spartan unique endurance training allowed them to survive for so long. The Greek allies did little to nothing, they did not hold the other pass and in the end it was only Spartans who fought. You have to ask the question why the allies are never mentioned?

[Leto]

I have to agree with Lacedemonian than in pure fighting skills, Spartan soldiers were more efficient than Roman ones.
But war are not won only on fighting skills, organization, spy network and supply circuit are also vitals. In this aspect, Roma as a whole entity was better than Sparta.
I'm not sure Roman army would have let themselves in such doomed position (although they had they share of defeat along Roman history).

[Lacedaemonian]

Didn't Boudicca almost wipe out half the Roman army?

[Leto]

Nope, because not half the Roman army was up there.

[Tsujigiri]

Originally Posted by Lacedaemonian

Didn't Boudicca almost wipe out half the Roman army?

Boudica was defeated because she faced the legion in a pitched battle, which was a stupid tactical mistake. The Romans on the field were undeniably the terror of the classical world.
If she had used her normal tactics of guerilla warfare then there is a reasonable chance that we would all be speaking Islam....

What does this have to do with Rome vs Sparta?

[Alexa]

Originally Posted by Lacedaemonian

The Greek allies did little to nothing, they did not hold the other pass and in the end it was only Spartans who fought. You have to ask the question why the allies are never mentioned?

Maybe because they were not loved at all by thir neighbours and I think among ordinary spartans, too. How could a mother happily agree to give his boy of 7 to be trained as a soldier for life ? Spartans didn't accept new citizens easily, so they could't keep many trained warriors for decades. The hatrad and rebellion was without limit among those conquered. I didn't like the selection they made with unfitted children at birth either. A life given entirely to the state is not life, it's slavery. But this is my opinion.

We have to consider Sparta was only a city-state and in direct rivalty with Athens. The spartans had their moment of glory and power as Roman Empire later. I belive each army had their valuable generals and a war between romans and spartans depend a lot on the period of confrontation and the generals in charge.

[Tsujigiri]

As a point of note, seven was the age at which children achieved legal status, and was also the age where parents were allowed to show public grief for the death of their child.

Don't make the mistake of applying modern western values and morals to classical historical societies, we may have inherited many things from them, but still many more are alien to us.

[Lacedaemonian]

The Spartan state was the original fascist state. Pure bloods etc etc

[littlemissattitude]

Originally Posted by Alexa

How could a mother happily agree to give his boy of 7 to be trained as a soldier for life ?

In Sparta the women were pretty much as tough as the men were. They were the ones who told their sons and husbands to either come home carrying their shields or on them. In other words, the women were telling the men to either win or don't bother to come home at all. That's a pretty cold attitude.

[Alexa]

Tsujigiri as we live into a modern society, I have no choice than consider that as a very barbaric tradition.

Lacey you really don't want to put greeks against you ? Maybe nazi found their model good to use it in their arien rase.

Littlemiss, they had no choice. A man could not stable till his thirthies. Or that age was very old in that period. Far away from his family he didn't know how to behave with his wife and his children. A woman with children was condemned to sacrifice the boys to the state and keep only girls in good healty. You know what's interesting ? With all their barbaric traditions, spartans aloud women to get an education. They were not trained exacly like boys, but not far away in fighting.

My history teacher used to say when we were not good in class, that we shoud have received a spartan education to appreciate our present life better. And that marked me for ever.