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Old 21st January 2013, 09:35 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Crackpot theory: Aegon's true parentage

Okay, here's my new theory based off of reading various prophecies, as well as looking at the historical connections here:

The newly revealed Prince Aegon is not the son of Rhaegar Targaryen, but is instead a descendant of Maelys Blackfyre or "Bittersteel" Aegor Rivers.

Some prophecies that lead me to this suspicion:
"No. Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal."- Quaithe to Dany in a dream.


Here, obviously the "Mummer's Dragon" would be Prince Aegon. The wiki listed the Mummer as probably Varys and the Dragon as Aegon, but the phrase together "Mummer's Dragon" makes it sound like it's a farce.

Also above she is warned of "Dark Flame", and although that is probably Moqorro (the connection to the Kraken supports that), it could also very easily be a reference to "Blackfyre" as "Dark Flame".

The second dream that makes me think that Aegon is not a descendant of Rhaegar is Tyrion's dream:
That night Tyrion Lannister dreamed of a battle that turned the hills of Westeros as red as blood. He was in the midst of it, dealing death with an axe as big as he was, fighting side by side with Barristan the Bold and Bittersteel as dragons wheeled across the sky above them. In the dream he had two heads, both noseless. His father led the enemy, so he slew him once again. Then he killed his brother Jaime, hacking at his face until it was a red ruin, laughing every time he struck a blow. Only when the fight was finished did he realise that his second head was weeping

So, who is "Bittersteel" that Tyrion is fighting beside? Is the gold-dipped skull of Bittersteel actually up and fighting, or does this refer to his descendant?

Also... what is the meaning of the "two heads"? I think I wrote somewhere else that this might have something to do with warging... but then again, Malys the Monstrous is the only character around who had two heads.

Of course there's this one:
"Dragons," Moqorro said in the Common Tongue of Westeros... "Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all." - Moqorro to Tyrion

Aegon would obviously be the false one... "dark" could be a reference to "Black"fyre, although that's a bit more of a stretch.

From Dany's visions in the House of the Undying:
A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd.

Stated by Danny later that it was a "Mummer's Dragon".

Okay, so all the prophecies above lead me to believe that Aegon is definitely not the son of Rhaegar and an actual Dragon/Targaryen. A couple point to possibilities of a Blackfyre or Bittersteel connection. The historical pretext however is the strongest evidence.

The Golden Company was originally founded by Bittersteel and the remaining sons of Daemon Blackfyre for the explicit purpose of keeping support for House Blackfyre and launching attacks to eventually retake the Iron Throne from the Targaryens descended from Daeron II Targaryen. Why on earth would they commit themselves to protecting the rightful Targaryen heir (on the side that the Blackfyres argued for centuries was not the legitimate lineage) and then wage a war to put him back on the throne?

Maelys the Monstrous was supposedly the last Blackfyre "in the male line" and he was killed by Barriston Selmy in 259, that would make him thirty or so years in the grave before Aegon was born. However, what of the female Blackfyres? Could there be more floating around?

And what of Illyrio's beautiful second wife, Serra, that looked so much like Dany? He claimed that she was a pillowhouse worker from Lysene who he liked so much that he married her. He claimed that the Prince of Pentos was upset with him for marrying a prostitute, but what if instead the Prince was upset with him for marrying a Blackfyre, especially if it happened after the War of the Ninepenny Kings?

And we have this nice little quote from Illyrio:
"Black or red, a dragon is still a dragon" - Illyrio to Tyrion

If you also want to throw in there that the Black Pearls (who are courtesans) of Bravos (where Illyrio was such a dashing young warrior) are descendants of another of Aegon IV's bastards... well then we have a whole host of background to lead us to believe that the current "Prince Aegon" is instead a descendant of one of Aegon IV's bastards, and most likely is a Blackfyre.

I look forward to the actual sword, "Blackfyre", making an appearance in the future. Seeing as the other Targaryen sword "Dark Sister" was last in the possession of Bloodraven, there could be a confrontation between the two in the future... Maybe that is the dragons "bright and dark" that Moqorro was talking about.
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Old 21st January 2013, 10:10 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Re: Crackpot theory: Aegon's true parentage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tywin View Post
Okay, here's my new theory based off of reading various prophecies, as well as looking at the historical connections here:

The newly revealed Prince Aegon is not the son of Rhaegar Targaryen, but is instead a descendant of Maelys Blackfyre or "Bittersteel" Aegor Rivers.

Some prophecies that lead me to this suspicion:
"No. Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal."- Quaithe to Dany in a dream.


Here, obviously the "Mummer's Dragon" would be Prince Aegon. The wiki listed the Mummer as probably Varys and the Dragon as Aegon, but the phrase together "Mummer's Dragon" makes it sound like it's a farce.

Also above she is warned of "Dark Flame", and although that is probably Moqorro (the connection to the Kraken supports that), it could also very easily be a reference to "Blackfyre" as "Dark Flame".

The second dream that makes me think that Aegon is not a descendant of Rhaegar is Tyrion's dream:
That night Tyrion Lannister dreamed of a battle that turned the hills of Westeros as red as blood. He was in the midst of it, dealing death with an axe as big as he was, fighting side by side with Barristan the Bold and Bittersteel as dragons wheeled across the sky above them. In the dream he had two heads, both noseless. His father led the enemy, so he slew him once again. Then he killed his brother Jaime, hacking at his face until it was a red ruin, laughing every time he struck a blow. Only when the fight was finished did he realise that his second head was weeping

So, who is "Bittersteel" that Tyrion is fighting beside? Is the gold-dipped skull of Bittersteel actually up and fighting, or does this refer to his descendant?

Also... what is the meaning of the "two heads"? I think I wrote somewhere else that this might have something to do with warging... but then again, Malys the Monstrous is the only character around who had two heads.

Of course there's this one:
"Dragons," Moqorro said in the Common Tongue of Westeros... "Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all." - Moqorro to Tyrion

Aegon would obviously be the false one... "dark" could be a reference to "Black"fyre, although that's a bit more of a stretch.

From Dany's visions in the House of the Undying:
A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd.

Stated by Danny later that it was a "Mummer's Dragon".

Okay, so all the prophecies above lead me to believe that Aegon is definitely not the son of Rhaegar and an actual Dragon/Targaryen. A couple point to possibilities of a Blackfyre or Bittersteel connection. The historical pretext however is the strongest evidence.

The Golden Company was originally founded by Bittersteel and the remaining sons of Daemon Blackfyre for the explicit purpose of keeping support for House Blackfyre and launching attacks to eventually retake the Iron Throne from the Targaryens descended from Daeron II Targaryen. Why on earth would they commit themselves to protecting the rightful Targaryen heir (on the side that the Blackfyres argued for centuries was not the legitimate lineage) and then wage a war to put him back on the throne?

Maelys the Monstrous was supposedly the last Blackfyre "in the male line" and he was killed by Barriston Selmy in 259, that would make him thirty or so years in the grave before Aegon was born. However, what of the female Blackfyres? Could there be more floating around?

And what of Illyrio's beautiful second wife, Serra, that looked so much like Dany? He claimed that she was a pillowhouse worker from Lysene who he liked so much that he married her. He claimed that the Prince of Pentos was upset with him for marrying a prostitute, but what if instead the Prince was upset with him for marrying a Blackfyre, especially if it happened after the War of the Ninepenny Kings?

And we have this nice little quote from Illyrio:
"Black or red, a dragon is still a dragon" - Illyrio to Tyrion

If you also want to throw in there that the Black Pearls (who are courtesans) of Bravos (where Illyrio was such a dashing young warrior) are descendants of another of Aegon IV's bastards... well then we have a whole host of background to lead us to believe that the current "Prince Aegon" is instead a descendant of one of Aegon IV's bastards, and most likely is a Blackfyre.

I look forward to the actual sword, "Blackfyre", making an appearance in the future. Seeing as the other Targaryen sword "Dark Sister" was last in the possession of Bloodraven, there could be a confrontation between the two in the future... Maybe that is the dragons "bright and dark" that Moqorro was talking about.
Really fine post Tywin. I don't quite agree with all of your examples, but you have supplied an overwhelming ammount of proof none the less, especially Aegon not being the son of Rhaegar. There is no denying the Bittersteel reference. I've never known quite what to make of the Tyrion dream.
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Old 22nd January 2013, 12:24 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Re: Crackpot theory: Aegon's true parentage

Quote:
Also above she is warned of "Dark Flame", and although that is probably Moqorro (the connection to the Kraken supports that), it could also very easily be a reference to "Blackfyre" as "Dark Flame".
Maybe but the two Mummer's dragon and Dark Flame are referred to separately. 2 references for 1 person does not seem to suit that prophecy

Quote:
Also... what is the meaning of the "two heads"? I think I wrote somewhere else that this might have something to do with warging... but then again, Malys the Monstrous is the only character around who had two heads.
I'll leave off the first part, which i do find a god reference for your theory but the two heads seems hold to me an obvious enough meaning --> one side of Tyrion wants revenge on his family, another side of Tyrion loves his family and weeps for what is happening




Quote:
Okay, so all the prophecies above lead me to believe that Aegon is definitely not the son of Rhaegar and an actual Dragon/Targaryen. A couple point to possibilities of a Blackfyre or Bittersteel connection. The historical pretext however is the strongest evidence.
To a certain extent i agree. I don't want Aegon to be the son of Rhaegar, i prefer the story that Aegon died in King's Landing, and that Aegon is in fact just some pretender brought forth by Ilyrio and Varys. My crackpot theory is that Varys is the brother of the woman Ilyrio loved. That Aegon is in truth the child of Ilyrio and the former whore. With the former whore being an unknown female blackfyre or Bittersteel descendant thus allowing for the right features.
Quote:
The Golden Company was originally founded by Bittersteel and the remaining sons of Daemon Blackfyre for the explicit purpose of keeping support for House Blackfyre and launching attacks to eventually retake the Iron Throne from the Targaryens descended from Daeron II Targaryen. Why on earth would they commit themselves to protecting the rightful Targaryen heir (on the side that the Blackfyres argued for centuries was not the legitimate lineage) and then wage a war to put him back on the throne?
Actually i can find myself in the reason stated in the books for it.


Quote:
And what of Illyrio's beautiful second wife, Serra, that looked so much like Dany? He claimed that she was a pillowhouse worker from Lysene who he liked so much that he married her. He claimed that the Prince of Pentos was upset with him for marrying a prostitute, but what if instead the Prince was upset with him for marrying a Blackfyre, especially if it happened after the War of the Ninepenny Kings?


If you also want to throw in there that the Black Pearls (who are courtesans) of Bravos (where Illyrio was such a dashing young warrior) are descendants of another of Aegon IV's bastards... well then we have a whole host of background to lead us to believe that the current "Prince Aegon" is instead a descendant of one of Aegon IV's bastards, and most likely is a Blackfyre.


it seems we have found some common ground on this. (Hadn't read that far before responding to your post. LOL)
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Old 22nd January 2013, 04:09 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Re: Crackpot theory: Aegon's true parentage

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Originally Posted by Tywin View Post
Okay, here's my new theory based off of reading various prophecies, as well as looking at the historical connections here:

The newly revealed Prince Aegon is not the son of Rhaegar Targaryen, but is instead a descendant of Maelys Blackfyre or "Bittersteel" Aegor Rivers.

Some prophecies that lead me to this suspicion:
"No. Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal."- Quaithe to Dany in a dream.


Here, obviously the "Mummer's Dragon" would be Prince Aegon. The wiki listed the Mummer as probably Varys and the Dragon as Aegon, but the phrase together "Mummer's Dragon" makes it sound like it's a farce.

Also above she is warned of "Dark Flame", and although that is probably Moqorro (the connection to the Kraken supports that), it could also very easily be a reference to "Blackfyre" as "Dark Flame".

The second dream that makes me think that Aegon is not a descendant of Rhaegar is Tyrion's dream:
That night Tyrion Lannister dreamed of a battle that turned the hills of Westeros as red as blood. He was in the midst of it, dealing death with an axe as big as he was, fighting side by side with Barristan the Bold and Bittersteel as dragons wheeled across the sky above them. In the dream he had two heads, both noseless. His father led the enemy, so he slew him once again. Then he killed his brother Jaime, hacking at his face until it was a red ruin, laughing every time he struck a blow. Only when the fight was finished did he realise that his second head was weeping

So, who is "Bittersteel" that Tyrion is fighting beside? Is the gold-dipped skull of Bittersteel actually up and fighting, or does this refer to his descendant?

Also... what is the meaning of the "two heads"? I think I wrote somewhere else that this might have something to do with warging... but then again, Malys the Monstrous is the only character around who had two heads.

Of course there's this one:
"Dragons," Moqorro said in the Common Tongue of Westeros... "Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all." - Moqorro to Tyrion

Aegon would obviously be the false one... "dark" could be a reference to "Black"fyre, although that's a bit more of a stretch.

From Dany's visions in the House of the Undying:
A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd.

Stated by Danny later that it was a "Mummer's Dragon".

Okay, so all the prophecies above lead me to believe that Aegon is definitely not the son of Rhaegar and an actual Dragon/Targaryen. A couple point to possibilities of a Blackfyre or Bittersteel connection. The historical pretext however is the strongest evidence.

The Golden Company was originally founded by Bittersteel and the remaining sons of Daemon Blackfyre for the explicit purpose of keeping support for House Blackfyre and launching attacks to eventually retake the Iron Throne from the Targaryens descended from Daeron II Targaryen. Why on earth would they commit themselves to protecting the rightful Targaryen heir (on the side that the Blackfyres argued for centuries was not the legitimate lineage) and then wage a war to put him back on the throne?

Maelys the Monstrous was supposedly the last Blackfyre "in the male line" and he was killed by Barriston Selmy in 259, that would make him thirty or so years in the grave before Aegon was born. However, what of the female Blackfyres? Could there be more floating around?

And what of Illyrio's beautiful second wife, Serra, that looked so much like Dany? He claimed that she was a pillowhouse worker from Lysene who he liked so much that he married her. He claimed that the Prince of Pentos was upset with him for marrying a prostitute, but what if instead the Prince was upset with him for marrying a Blackfyre, especially if it happened after the War of the Ninepenny Kings?

And we have this nice little quote from Illyrio:
"Black or red, a dragon is still a dragon" - Illyrio to Tyrion

If you also want to throw in there that the Black Pearls (who are courtesans) of Bravos (where Illyrio was such a dashing young warrior) are descendants of another of Aegon IV's bastards... well then we have a whole host of background to lead us to believe that the current "Prince Aegon" is instead a descendant of one of Aegon IV's bastards, and most likely is a Blackfyre.

I look forward to the actual sword, "Blackfyre", making an appearance in the future. Seeing as the other Targaryen sword "Dark Sister" was last in the possession of Bloodraven, there could be a confrontation between the two in the future... Maybe that is the dragons "bright and dark" that Moqorro was talking about.
Nice one, Tywin! You've given me a lot to chew on here. I need to ruminate awhile before I can respond.
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Old 22nd January 2013, 04:55 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Re: Crackpot theory: Aegon's true parentage

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Actually i can find myself in the reason stated in the books for it.
Which reason was that (this was concerning the reason the Golden Company would throw in with the branch of the Targs that they had been trying to overthrow for about a century.)
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Old 22nd January 2013, 05:24 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Re: Crackpot theory: Aegon's true parentage

Nice finds Tywin, throwing more fuel on the Blackfyre. Thanks. Gotta give Eulalia credit for this theory though. I'll find the links soon, cause there is more evidence. I think those posts are in the Varys and TFM threads

I am happy this theory is catching on because it didn't spark much discussion the first time and I think it's important to the series.

Here: Varys: What's his motivation? (Mild ADWD spoilers)

Keep scrolling to my posts there is a lot more evidence.

Last edited by A-roc; 22nd January 2013 at 05:29 AM. Reason: Added link.
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Old 22nd January 2013, 08:03 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Re: Crackpot theory: Aegon's true parentage

I like this theory and i agree there is plenty of evidence to back it. It also makes me wonder about Septa Lemore and her role. If the theory about her actually being the mother of Tyene Sand ( bastard of the red viper/ and one of the sand snake) is true im wondering her role? Does she know the truth? Has she been tricked the same as Connington? Was she recruted to help Vary's and Illyrio back their story to strenthen his bond with the Martells in Dorne? I feel she would play a big role in convincing them, especially with Arianne being she seems to feel a close bond with the sand snakes.

Im curious to what others might think as far as the selection of those chosen to help raise and teach Aegon ( aside from Connington) how each of them may also fit in the crackpot theory. Are any of the others also in on the truth or sold on the lie? Are Varys and Illyrio the only ones who know the truth?
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Old 22nd January 2013, 08:43 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Re: Crackpot theory: Aegon's true parentage

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Which reason was that (this was concerning the reason the Golden Company would throw in with the branch of the Targs that they had been trying to overthrow for about a century.)
Tyrion asks just about the same question to Ilyrio.
He answers that they'd be happy to fight for any dragon, as long as it got them back home to westeros. The introduction we received from the Golden Company believes me (alongside greed for money, wealth, status) this to be true.
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Old 22nd January 2013, 09:32 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Re: Crackpot theory: Aegon's true parentage

Ah, yes, the same quote from Illyrio that I cited above:
"Black or red, a dragon is still a dragon" - Illyrio to Tyrion

Funny, but that also really supports the idea that The Golden Company is a Blackfyre support organization. If Black and Red were so even, then why didn't they pledge themselves to Viserys? Or at least tell him that his (younger) uncle was alive?
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Old 22nd January 2013, 09:38 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Re: Crackpot theory: Aegon's true parentage

And A-roc, I'll gladly give credit to Eulalia. I knew I had to have gotten that from somewhere.
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Old 22nd January 2013, 09:49 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Re: Crackpot theory: Aegon's true parentage

Interesting theory to say the least.
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Old 22nd January 2013, 11:13 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Re: Crackpot theory: Aegon's true parentage

Good work, Tywin.

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Ah, yes, the same quote from Illyrio that I cited above:
"Black or red, a dragon is still a dragon" - Illyrio to Tyrion

Funny, but that also really supports the idea that The Golden Company is a Blackfyre support organization. If Black and Red were so even, then why didn't they pledge themselves to Viserys? Or at least tell him that his (younger) uncle was alive?
They may have been worried about Viserys's insanity and planet-sized sense of entitlement. The first would make him a loose cannon (meaning that, at the very least**, the members of the Golden Company wouldn't necessarily get what they wanted); the second would put Aegon in danger.

But more than that, Aegon was, and is, their Targ and Viserys wasn't and would never be.


However, remember that those running the Aegon Project (Varys and Illyrio) are somewhat devious, to say the least. Perhaps they've told the leaders of the Golden Company that the only way they're going to get a Blackfyre on the Iron Throne is to (initially) pretend he's a Targ. After all, whether he's a Blackfyre or a Targ doesn't really matter, as long as the supporters of each of those branches believe he's their rightful king. (And recall that this wouldn't be the only example of passing off in Westeros, e.g. the Boltons and the false Arya. Okay the Aegon Project is rather better organised....)



** - And once Viserys had the resources of Westeros at his command, how benignly would he look upon the descendants of those who'd rebelled against one of Viserys ancestors in the past.
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Old 22nd January 2013, 12:12 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Re: Crackpot theory: Aegon's true parentage

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However, remember that those running the Aegon Project (Varys and Illyrio) are somewhat devious, to say the least. Perhaps they've told the leaders of the Golden Company that the only way they're going to get a Blackfyre on the Iron Throne is to (initially) pretend he's a Targ. After all, whether he's a Blackfyre or a Targ doesn't really matter, as long as the supporters of each of those branches believe he's their rightful king. (And recall that this wouldn't be the only example of passing off in Westeros, e.g. the Boltons and the false Arya. Okay the Aegon Project is rather better organised....)
Precisely, although it might be too early to assume that Varys and Illyrio are manipulating the Golden Company... it could easily be the other way around and the whole crew (Illyrio, Varys, the Golden Company leadership) have always been on the same side and are working together for their common goal.

Now... how does Jon Connington enter into this? He's obviously not a died in the wool Blackfyre supporter...
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Old 22nd January 2013, 12:14 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Re: Crackpot theory: Aegon's true parentage

He obviously "knows" that Aegon is a Targ....
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Old 22nd January 2013, 12:16 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Re: Crackpot theory: Aegon's true parentage

Yeah, I was thinking something like that. Who else do we have with Jon and Aegon in ADWD? Septa Lemore?
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