"Realistic" dogfighting in SF...

[Fishbowl Helmet]

Okay, so I'm on the prowl for--relatively speaking--realistic space combat in written SF. As I haven't really found one yet I'll have to use TV examples, sorry about that. Given I'm using TV as an example, I know these shows have novelizations, etc, but I'm looking for non-tie-in books that do this well.

Specifically, I'm looking for space fighter combat that doesn't treat the ships like they're either atmospheric (re: aerodynamic) planes that have drag and the like, or treat the ships like they're ocean going sailing ships, or their more modern naval equivalents.

So, examples:

Babylon 5. The Starfury usually followed Newtonian physics and would often pivot to face the opposite direct of their inertia, without slowing down or going into an arc.

Battlestar Galactica. The Vipers would flip, strafe, and generally maneuver quite freely, basically following Newtonian physics and using the freefall conditions of fighting in a vacuum almost realistically.

I'm looking for the written word equivalent to that. Specifically small, one-man craft dogfighting with each other in space that's actually treated like a vacuum instead of water or an atmosphere.

Any suggestions? Thanks in advance.

[Metryq]

In my opinion, "realistic" dogfighting in space would be no dogfighting. The distances are too vast and therefore the speeds too great to expect living pilots to be of much use. On top of that, knocking out a single, tiny fighter—manned or unmanned—would be peanuts in the scheme of things. Beings with the technology and resources to fight interplanetary or interstellar wars would be engaged on a planetary scale—or between "capital" ships at the very least.

STAR TREK is unrealistic in that I can't imagine a ship standing up to even a single hit from a "super weapon." Historically, there has always been a leapfrogging race between weapons and shields, with weapons typically having the upper hand.

Even now, manned fighters are unlikely to be in service much longer, except for "surgical" strikes and ground support. (Meaning the tiny fighters will not engage each other.) This is the type of warfare Heinlein described in STARSHIP TROOPERS. Once you move into the vastness of open space far from settlements and industry, there's no reason not to fire weapons of overwhelming force.

[Fishbowl Helmet]

Originally Posted by Metryq

In my opinion, "realistic" dogfighting in space would be no dogfighting. The distances are too vast and therefore the speeds too great to expect living pilots to be of much use. On top of that, knocking out a single, tiny fighter—manned or unmanned—would be peanuts in the scheme of things. Beings with the technology and resources to fight interplanetary or interstellar wars would be engaged on a planetary scale—or between "capital" ships at the very least.

STAR TREK is unrealistic in that I can't imagine a ship standing up to even a single hit from a "super weapon." Historically, there has always been a leapfrogging race between weapons and shields, with weapons typically having the upper hand.

Even now, manned fighters are unlikely to be in service much longer, except for "surgical" strikes and ground support. (Meaning the tiny fighters will not engage each other.) This is the type of warfare Heinlein described in STARSHIP TROOPERS. Once you move into the vastness of open space far from settlements and industry, there's no reason not to fire weapons of overwhelming force.

Okay, so the short version is: "No, I don't know of any examples of what you're asking for."

Well, thanks then.

[clovis-man]

Originally Posted by Metryq

In my opinion, "realistic" dogfighting in space would be no dogfighting. The distances are too vast and therefore the speeds too great to expect living pilots to be of much use.

Actually, you can go all the way back to the Viet Nam war and find examples that contradict this assertion. F4 Phantoms and Migs engaged in (for want of a better term) "dogfights" via missiles with tracking capability when it was almost impossible to have a line of sight reference of the opponent. Later on, laser tracking wrote whole new chapters in aerial warfare.

But if you are thinking of the Mangaloids engaging in "showtime" in The Fifth Element, yes, it strains credibility.

[Galacticdefender]

In my Space Opera universe, fighters are generally used en masse for very large assaults, and they break off to attack large ships. The dogfighting is crazy, paying pretty good attention to Newtonian physics. In fact, the thrusters are generally not even fired much. The way I justify them still looking cool is that they can be refitted to fight in atmosphere.

[Metryq]

Sorry, Fishbowl Helmet. It was not my intention to deflate the thread, but that word "realistic" crept in there. I've read some sci-fi involving one-man fighters in space, but none of them were "dogfights." If you're looking for scenes with detailed description, then I see two problems: readers who understand all the terminology might be a very niche market, but then none of the maneuvers used by aircraft would apply in space, as you noted.

Originally Posted by clovis-man

Actually, you can go all the way back to the Viet Nam war and find examples that contradict this assertion.

I wouldn't call that dogfighting. A fighter pilot who flew in 'nam told me dodging missiles was basically a game of chicken—waiting as late as possible for a weapon flying several times faster than you, then dodging suddenly to evade its "field of view." But even back in that war, jets did dogfight. At "slow" terrestrial speeds.

Now take an example like STAR WARS (the original movie). The X-wings and other fighters circumnavigated a giant planet that we might guess was around the size of Jupiter. With engines like that, what do you think a pilot is going to do when he gets an Imperial TIE on his tail? Blip the throttle and be a speck impossible to target. Granted, the attack on the Death Star was a surgical type of strike, but a swarm of automated weapons akin to cruise missiles would have done the job far better. Those not aimed at the exhaust port could have raised Cain on the surface with weapons far more devastating than the pea-shooters we saw in the movie. Don't bring a blaster to an antimatter warhead fight.

[Grunkins]

I'll join the party pooper club here. I don't think there really can be anything similar to what we think of as dogfighting in space. As was said above the distances are too vast. Weapons firing from hundreds of thousands or millions of kilometers away don't make for very good dogfights. And, as also mentioned, the speeds are huge and turning would take ages.

[Fishbowl Helmet]

Not to be an ass, but I'm not asking about people's opinions on what space warfare will be like, but if they know of any actual novels that feature the style of fighting I asked about.

Responses that this isn't realistic amount to thread crapping and I'd appreciate it if you don't have an example akin to what I'm requesting that you kindly piss off.

[Galacticdefender]

Uhh.... okay. Calm down there,

Leviathan Wakes and Caliban's War by "James S.A. Corey" have some good space combat that isn't too rediculously implausible. I'd go as far as to say pretty realistic at most times.

[j. d. worthington]

There won't be any more responses. The post above (#8) has resulted in the thread being permanently closed. There is no room at Chrons for such a response to other members, nor will any such be tolerated in future.'