Sir/sir again

[springs]

Gah, I'm so sorry, but this one is raising its head again. In this exchange:



“Thank you, Eevan,” Kare said.

“Thank you, Sir.” Eevan’s dark glare dared Kare to oppose him.

“Thank you, Sir.”


I've capitalized Sir, because I think it's in the place of Eevan's proper name. I had it as sir, the way I now use it, as per earlier thread in Yes, sir, which should it be...

TJ! help! (or anyone else. I have so many Sirs/Ma'ams...)

[The Judge]

Lower case. "Thank you, sir." Both times. It may be replacing his name, but it doesn't make it a name or a title to be capitalised. If he was being demeaning you wouldn't say "Fetch this, Boy" or "Move over, Woman" (unless Boy and Woman were actual names, of course).

Um... you might want to reconsider "dark glare dared"

[springs]

Okey, dokey.

I will (the dark glare, maybe I'll change dared): I am reconsidering an awful lot....

Ty.

[Teresa Edgerton]

I don't know what it is in the UK (I expect TJ is right), but over here it comes down to a matter of style.

But Sir is definitely old-fashioned, so if that doesn't match with the style and setting of your book, better not to use it. Especially since more and more often publishers' style guides are going to want you to use sir.

[kaal]

"You've made sure that Captain Atherton of the Gened has been notified, mister?" said the admiral, brow-beating the rating.
"Yes, Admiral Elridge."
"That new commander, there, too?"
"Yes, admiral!"
"I suppose I should include my own XO."
"Certainly, ma'am, I shall see to it momentarily."
"Do you mean you won't spend long on it? Or that you're going to do it immediately?"

HTH

K

[ctg]

"Sah." Wilkison stumbled upstairs.

"Yes," I said without moving my eyes from the map lying on the table.

"Sir," Wilkison saluted. "Boys... er, troops are ready."

"Thank you Corporal. Tell them, I'll be there in a minute."

"Sah," Wilkison saluted again. "Thank you sir."

I wanted to make this example for you to understand the means of using sir in the context, but I also wanted to show it can bend in anyway you want. And that it doesn't always have to show respect.

[Peter Graham]

Hi Springs,

It's a doddle.

"Sir" is only generally capitalised when it is a formal title - in other words, when someone has actually been knighted. So, it's Sir Gawain, General Sir Mike Dannett and Sir Clifford De Richard.

"Sir" when used as a mode of address for anyone other than a knight of the realm is not generally capitalised - because it isn't a proper part of anyone's name. So school teachers and army officers are "sir".

There are alway exceptions. I'd bow to Her Honour, but some judges are called "Sir" and I suspect that is capitalised in this context as it is a formal mode of address, recorded as such in tablets of judicial stone (probably written in Church Latin or High French).

If someone changed their name to Sir Galahad, it would be capitalised as it is now part of a proper noun.

The only other exception I can think of at this moment is the cut of beef called sirloin. In between his vital tasks of doing bugger all and upsetting everyone, that dribbling halfwit James I (and VI of Scotland) knighted a loin of beef. So, arguably it should always be spelled Sirloin, as it has a title. It isn't, which might be because only one specific piece of beef got the gong, or might be because everyone knew that James and his progeny were a parcel of hapless numpties and were quietly counting down the days to the civil war.

Regards,

Peter

[Gary Compton]

So I presume the same applies for guv/Guv?

'I'v got the information you requested, guv.' Compo told him.

And is there always a comma before it?

[Ursa major]

I think we can excuse James I (and VI), on account of his very early age, Peter.

My OED records the name of this joint of meat (spelt serlyn, as the writer didn't have the sense to use Word's or Google's spellchecker) as first appearing in 1525, whereas the babe-who-would-be-king didn't arrive on Earth (not officially, at least) until June 1566.

[The Judge]

Originally Posted by Gary Compton

So I presume the same applies for guv/Guv?

'I'v got the information you requested, guv.' Compo told him.

And is there always a comma before it?

I think you might get away with the upper case "G" if you wanted it, Gary, as that is bordering on the name. I'm in two minds. Whichever you choose, though, make sure it's consistent.

Always a comma before. And in this case a comma after, too -- as the "Compo told him" is a dialogue tag. If it was '"... wanted, guv.' Compo held out the file" then the full stop would be right.

Originally Posted by Ursa major

My OED records the name of this joint of meat (spelt serlyn, as the writer didn't have the sense to use Word's or Google's spellchecker) as first appearing in 1525

The etymolgy dictionary I use has this:

early 15c., surloine, from M.Fr. surlonge, lit. "upper part of the loin," from sur "over, above" + longe "loin," from O.Fr. loigne. English spelling with sir- dates from 17c., supposedly because the cut of beef was "knighted" by an English king for its superiority, a tale variously told of Henry VIII, James I, and Charles II, though none is chronologically possible.

Any advance on early 15th c?

[Peter Graham]

Any advance on early 15th c?

Excellent! A myth debunked - thanks to Ursa and Yer Honour!

I will henceforth expunge this particular objection to James I.

So I presume the same applies for guv/Guv?

Yes, but even more so. "Guv" is short for "governor", which is no longer a title in such wide circulation as once it was. You might capitalise the Governing Board of a school, but for coppers, it's far less formal. In fact, I've never heard it used by coppers outside The Sweeney, although it is more of a southern phrase than a northern one, so they might still use it Dahn Saaf. Up here, they,d say "sarge" or even "boss", but for the most part, it's nicknames*.

So, as it is an informal, almost slang mode of address, I'd part company with Her Honour and always spell it "guv". Same with the following regional methods of address:-

"Now then, squire." ("Hello" in demotic Lincolnshire).

"Alreet, lad?" ("Hello" in demotic Yorkshire).

"Awreet, marra? ("Hello" in demotic West Cumbrian).

"Areet, chaw?" ("Hello" in demotic North Cumbrian when addressing a young or middle aged man. For old men, subsitute "gadgie").

Regards,

Peter

* In common with established British nicknaming convention, all formed by chopping off any loose consonants at the end of the name and replacing with *y.

[Vertigo]

Wouldn't the Guv one come under the same umbrella as things like Captain and Boss all of which I'm sure I usually see capitalised as being replacements for names:

"What do you think, Captain?"
"What do you think, Boss?"
"What do you think, Guv?"