Who is your favorite Buffyverse villain?

[Darth Angelus]

Buffyverse has a huge number of great characters, in my opinion. I'd like to discuss the villains in the series of Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel, as one whole, who was the most enjoyable and memorable to you, and why.

When deciding the available opitions, I made a these decisions:
1. Circle of the Black Thorn in Angel's final season was combined into one option, as each character in it had little time on his or her own, and some were even unnamed, so I didn't feel it made sense to have the individuals as options. If one specific of those was your favorite, however, feel free to write that in a post (in addition to casting vote on them as a whole, I hope)!
2. Nathan Reed, the bald manager in Wolfram & Hart in season 2, is excluded, mostly because he never really confronted the heroes or caused them trouble. He just held Lindsay and Lilah on a short leash.
3. Lee Mercer (Wolfram & Hart employee in Angel season 1) is too small.
4. As is the demon Skip in Angel season 3-4 and The Immortal in Angel season 5.

All this boils down to me feeling I have to draw the line somewhere, with so many options as it. First, I just wanted to focus on the real big bads, but I found that line hard to draw, so very many characters got included.

[Darth Angelus]

I have always found Marcus Hamilton in Angel season 5 to be really cool. It is not just that he is really strong, as that does not make a great character by itself, but his totally detached attitude to the world around him, as he is walking around in his fine suit and enforcing the will of Wolfram & Hart.
He just screams so badass to me.

[J-Sun]

I'm going to have to go with the Mayor because (a) he's a Big Bad and (b) he's the best of those, with his common sense simple virtues neither being an act nor touching his pure evil and his and Faith's completely twisted relationship. "There's nothing uncool about healthy teeth and bones." "Miniature golf!" Spike and Dru are fantastic but got displaced in the season by Angelus and, while Angelus is probably Buffy's personally toughest Big Bad, he's sort of something else - the Crossover Bad. And Spike's almost the reverse and a lot of Spike comes from the less-Bad phase. Unfortunately, while Dru was wisely kept as a recurring character we never got enough of her. And Faith would give Angel a run as a Crossover Bad. The s2 Bad cluster of Angelus, Spike, and Dru vs. the s3 cluster of The Mayor and Faith would be tougher to decide but if I have to pick one entity out of all of them as a pure Bad, then, yep, The Mayor.

And then Ethan Rayne is just a blast but is decidedly minor. I bet there are several minor bads who I might include but I'm not thinking of. For instance, Mr. Trick isn't my favorite but should be on the list. Of the rest on the list, not so much, though Glory wasn't a bad Bad. She was the last decent Bad - the worst are easily those from s6 and s7.

[Darth Angelus]

Yeah, the mayor is fairly awesome, definitely affably evil which is quite a great trope. He is really evil...with style and manners. It is also great, the part where he is sort of a mentor and father figure to Faith.

And I also agree about Ethan Rayne. He was only in a few episodes, but he made quite an impression in that little time. He was just real fun to watch.

[J-Sun]

Originally Posted by Darth Angelus

Yeah, the mayor is fairly awesome, definitely affably evil which is quite a great trope. He is really evil...with style and manners. It is also great, the part where he is sort of a mentor and father figure to Faith.

Thanks for that link and term - I didn't realize it was a "thing" but, yeah, "affably evil" was what I was trying to get at.

And I also agree about Ethan Rayne. He was only in a few episodes, but he made quite an impression in that little time. He was just real fun to watch.

Yep - and I don't know if his character helped spark it or if he just got lucky but some of the eps he was in were some of the best even aside from him. "Halloween", "Band Candy", and "A New Man" are all among my favorites. Jane Espenson wrote the last two but didn't write "Halloween" or actually introduce the character or I'd say it was just her. She definitely had a feel for him, though. Couple of my favorite lines are when Ethan does the Villain Talks Ominously to the Air (is there a "tvtrope" for that?) and Giles pops back into the crypt and Ethan says, "Oh, bugger, I thought you'd gone!" (Apologies if that's stronger elsewhere but it was on American network TV.) And probably my very favorite is Rayne's delivery when Ethan and Giles are drinking together, Ethan tells Giles he's poisoned Giles' drink - Giles looks blearily terrified and Ethan bursts out in drunken laughter, slurring, "Just kidding!"

[Darth Angelus]

Originally Posted by J-Sun

Thanks for that link and term - I didn't realize it was a "thing" but, yeah, "affably evil" was what I was trying to get at.

No problem. www.tvtropes.org is a great site for tropes in fiction, and fun to read.

Originally Posted by J-Sun

Yep - and I don't know if his character helped spark it or if he just got lucky but some of the eps he was in were some of the best even aside from him. "Halloween", "Band Candy", and "A New Man" are all among my favorites. Jane Espenson wrote the last two but didn't write "Halloween" or actually introduce the character or I'd say it was just her. She definitely had a feel for him, though. Couple of my favorite lines are when Ethan does the Villain Talks Ominously to the Air (is there a "tvtrope" for that?) and Giles pops back into the crypt and Ethan says, "Oh, bugger, I thought you'd gone!" (Apologies if that's stronger elsewhere but it was on American network TV.) And probably my very favorite is Rayne's delivery when Ethan and Giles are drinking together, Ethan tells Giles he's poisoned Giles' drink - Giles looks blearily terrified and Ethan bursts out in drunken laughter, slurring, "Just kidding!"

Also remember when Ethan wants to sacrifice Buffy and says something like (I can't remember the exact words, except for the last sentence)...
"I hope you don't take this the wrong way. I actually rather like you. It is just that I like myself a lot more."

As for the villain talking ominously into the air, I would guess there is a trope for that, but I am not sure what it is called. I don't remember the situation exactly. Could it be evil gloating?

[J-Sun]

Originally Posted by Darth Angelus

Also remember when Ethan wants to sacrifice Buffy and says something like (I can't remember the exact words, except for the last sentence)...
"I hope you don't take this the wrong way. I actually rather like you. It is just that I like myself a lot more."

Yeah - that ("The Dark Age") wasn't quite as good an episode to me (still great, but less great) but that's an excellent line.

As for the villain talking ominously into the air, I would guess there is a trope for that, but I am not sure what it is called. I don't remember the situation exactly. Could it be evil gloating?

I think the situation was that Giles had calculated something horrible was going to happen (or something like that) and he and Xander and Willow were waiting around at the supposed time and place, bored because it hadn't happened on schedule. Finally he sent them off and waited longer himself, but gave up, saying, "Who am I kidding? Nothing's going to happen" and walking out. Ethan steps out from the darkness, saying, "I wouldn't say that. I wouldn't say that at all. In fact, Ripper, old mate, I'd something rather interesting was about to hap--" and Giles pops back in, asking if someone said something, astonishing Ethan and ruining his moment. There's a similar one where Spike is making a speech right when the Initiative zaps him. I poked around on the site and came across the "evil gloating" entry but it's not quite right and I found several related but couldn't find it exactly in those. It's like an anticipatory evil gloating rather than a real-time gloating and it assumes no one's around to hear it (hence the funny in Giles' overhearing something and interrupting it) rather than gloating in the hero's presence. But it's along those lines.

[Darth Angelus]

Originally Posted by J-Sun

Yeah - that ("The Dark Age") wasn't quite as good an episode to me (still great, but less great) but that's an excellent line.

You seem to have great knowledge of Buffy episodes, being able to name them like that. I have only watched through the series around three times.
I also recall that episode as not quite the greatest, although there are worse, particularly in the first, and in my opinion clearly the least impressive, season of this outstanding show.

Originally Posted by J-Sun

I think the situation was that Giles had calculated something horrible was going to happen (or something like that) and he and Xander and Willow were waiting around at the supposed time and place, bored because it hadn't happened on schedule. Finally he sent them off and waited longer himself, but gave up, saying, "Who am I kidding? Nothing's going to happen" and walking out. Ethan steps out from the darkness, saying, "I wouldn't say that. I wouldn't say that at all. In fact, Ripper, old mate, I'd something rather interesting was about to hap--" and Giles pops back in, asking if someone said something, astonishing Ethan and ruining his moment. There's a similar one where Spike is making a speech right when the Initiative zaps him. I poked around on the site and came across the "evil gloating" entry but it's not quite right and I found several related but couldn't find it exactly in those. It's like an anticipatory evil gloating rather than a real-time gloating and it assumes no one's around to hear it (hence the funny in Giles' overhearing something and interrupting it) rather than gloating in the hero's presence. But it's along those lines.

Oh, yes, I think I know the sort of situation you are talking about, and I agree that while it is sort of similar to evil gloating, that is still not quite right.

There is a similar trope that happens to good characters a few times in Buffy and Angel. They say something with aboslute conviction, only to be immediately contradicted by the direct opposite, which is shown to happen in the very next instant.
In Angel episode 5.17: Underneath, Lorne tries to comfort Eve by saying "This place is a fortress." (they are in the Wolfram & Hart office of LA). Then the alarm goes off, and Hamilton appears for the first time.

Speaking of which, how do you feel about Hamilton?

[J-Sun]

Originally Posted by Darth Angelus

You seem to have great knowledge of Buffy episodes, being able to name them like that.

Well, I can name things like "Halloween" and "Band Candy" and so on, but I had forgotten the title of "A New Man" and saw "The Dark Age" when looking that up. Depends on what you mean by "know" as I can grope around for a lot of this stuff because I "know" it but I have to look it up to remind me of what I "know".

There is a similar trope that happens to good characters a few times in Buffy and Angel. They say something with aboslute conviction, only to be immediately contradicted by the direct opposite, which is shown to happen in the very next instant.
In Angel episode 5.17: Underneath, Lorne tries to comfort Eve by saying "This place is a fortress." (they are in the Wolfram & Hart office of LA). Then the alarm goes off, and Hamilton appears for the first time.

Yep - or similar ironic undercuttings in general - I remember Buffy making a great rant, I think while arguing with Angel, before falling in a freshly opened grave which literally pulls the ground out from under her.

Speaking of which, how do you feel about Hamilton?

Sorry, I've either forgotten this character or quit watching Angel before he came on. I really only liked the first season of Angel and thought the second was okay and quit watching somewhere near the end of season three - I think the episode was "Double or Nothing" - not that there was anything catastrophically wrong with that episode but it was when I finally realized/admitted I just didn't care any more. I saw a random few episodes after that but have tried to repress most of those.

[Darth Angelus]

Originally Posted by J-Sun

Well, I can name things like "Halloween" and "Band Candy" and so on, but I had forgotten the title of "A New Man" and saw "The Dark Age" when looking that up. Depends on what you mean by "know" as I can grope around for a lot of this stuff because I "know" it but I have to look it up to remind me of what I "know".

I see. Still, you have a pretty good grasp of Buffy, sort of on the same level as I have of the final season of Angel.

Originally Posted by J-Sun

Yep - or similar ironic undercuttings in general - I remember Buffy making a great rant, I think while arguing with Angel, before falling in a freshly opened grave which literally pulls the ground out from under her.

Joss Whedon's comic relief is really the best. The shows are really such great fun to watch because of that alone.

Originally Posted by J-Sun

Sorry, I've either forgotten this character or quit watching Angel before he came on. I really only liked the first season of Angel and thought the second was okay and quit watching somewhere near the end of season three - I think the episode was "Double or Nothing" - not that there was anything catastrophically wrong with that episode but it was when I finally realized/admitted I just didn't care any more. I saw a random few episodes after that but have tried to repress most of those.

Ok, then you would have quit before he came on. He was only in the last few episodes of the fifth and final season of Angel. You didn't like the spinoff as much as the original, I guess.
Anyway, I think it is a bit unfortunate, as I would say the final season of Angel is among the best, arguably the best, of both series. Not meaning to be pushy, of course, but I can highly recommend it.

[J-Sun]

Originally Posted by Darth Angelus

Joss Whedon's comic relief is really the best. The shows are really such great fun to watch because of that alone.

Yep. Most Whedon shows combine comedy and drama so much better than really any other shows and each part is better than most shows' wholes.

You didn't like the spinoff as much as the original, I guess.

Nope - I didn't even like Buffy's s6-7 as much as the original original of s1-5, though I stuck through that to the bitter end. (I'd have quit any other show.) Originally, Angel had a much grittier feel and, while still having the trademark humor, was generally darker and more dramatic. And I felt they were doing some neat things with Cordelia - I particularly remember Angel and Cordelia doing some sort of martial arts/sword/movement exercises and I could imagine a show where Cordelia (who originally tried out for the part of Buffy before getting Cordelia) would become a sort of purely human Buffy or a sort of one-woman Scooby Gang to Angel's Buffy. And they'd face a sort of human darkness - sort of like Buffy did in "Anne" where it wasn't sunny suburban Sunnydale and, for some people, it was hardly better above ground than in the demonworld below. Some early Angel dealt with that - the unemployed, the homeless, the traumatized, the "demons" (supernatural or otherwise) that prey on them. "We help the hopeless", y'know? And Doyle was also great. I know that was out of their control but, when they lost Doyle and supernaturalized Cordy, stuff was already, almost immediately going off the rails. And so much went wrong after that that, for me, I just couldn't enjoy season 5 no matter how good it was, if they reference anything to do with the nonsense they did to Cordelia later, or any Angel Jrs. or Darlas or vampire hunters or parallel worlds or ghosty Spikes or any of the stuff I heard about or saw that they did in the later seasons. Sorry - got a little long-winded there. But I'm glad it worked for you.

[Darth Angelus]

No problem.
All I can say is that it is unfortunate, because I think the last seasons of both series were great. However, it can't really be helped. Sometimes, I can't be bothered to see things through to the end, either, so I sort of understand where you are coming from.