Bards and GRRM in High School

[A-roc]

SPOILERS. Looked through several threads and I never saw much discussion of the bards, so I hope to start one here. On a re-read, I was thinking about all the bards, and seems they all have three things in common. 1) they all do quite well with the ladies, 2) they all sing of course, and 3) they all suffer.

Here are a couple examples:

Marrillion was doing pretty well with Lysa until Petyr made him fly…much to Sweetrobin’s delight. I don’t have my copy of AGOT, but Marrillion is the one who came over the clan mountains with Tyrion, Bronn, and Cat, right?

Blue Bard was doing the dancing bear and having wild orgies with all the Tyrell girls until Cersie wanted a pepperoni pizza and made Qyburn slice the bard’s nipple off.

Dareon of the Night’s Watch was crushin it in Braavos at the brothels until Sam the Slayer clocked him in the face and Arya/Cat dumped him in a canal.

Mance Rayder is also somewhat of bard and he had his way with 10,000 wildlings. He’s like the Wilt Chamberlain of Westeros. Well maybe not, but he could of if he wanted. Anyway, he’s not in the best situation right now at the Wall or with the bastard Bolton. By the way, Sansa in the Vale mentioned a bard coming once and staying for a while at Winterfell. Was that Mance or did he just go sneak a peek when King Robert was calling on Ned? I think Sansa was referring to when she was much younger, so I don’t think it was Mance, but I wonder who the bard was that she was talking about.

Symon Silver Tongue was doing pretty well with Shae until Tyrion had Bronn dispose of him. Here are the other singers for Joffrey’s wedding, but we don’t hear much about them right or are there connections to these bards elsewhere? Hamish the Harper, Collio Quaynis, Bethany Fair-Fingers, Alaric of Eysen, and Galyeon of Cuy.

Lastly, my fav is the dubious Tom of Sevenstreams. He’s reported to have several bastards running around the Riverlands, and he just destroys it at the Peach whenever he visits. On my recent re-read I realized he was hanging out with some Freys at the siege of Riverrun. When Jaime lifted the siege and the Freys departed the outlaws caught em on the way back to the Twins. Where any of these Frey’s musicians at the Red Wedding? Jaime wondered how the outlaws knew their movement, well I am pretty sure it was Tom. Oh yeah, the creepy little witch on the hill like totally wants to make out with him too. Well, Tom is sitting pretty at this point, but given the pattern, I say he’s not long for this world.

Any other bards worth discussing?

So what does this all mean? Well I think it’s pretty obvious that GRRM had a crush on some chick in high school, and she was swept away by some lead-singer/guitarist in a band. GRRM begrudged musicians ever since and his writing reflects his disdain for their type. Bottom line is, if you sing or play guitar, GRRM will kill you.

[Boaz]

Spoilers for AGOT, ACOK, ASOS, AFFC, and ADWD. Readers beware!

Bards. Great topic. But I don't really know about your conclusion that GRRM holds a forty-five year old grudge on some garage-band-Chuck-Berry-wanna-be from high school. That's like saying GRRM also was also shunned and treated badly by the football team because all the major fighters in ASOIAF have it rough.

Jaime: Greatest swordsman after Barristan flees. Now his golf game suffers greatly.

Eddard: Deadly with Ice. No longer stoops through doorways.

Oberyn: Nasty piece of work. Needed a better health plan.

Sandor: Undefeated. Disfigured, maimed, and bitter. What a life.

Gregor: Mountain do... Mountain done.

Drogo: Invincable right up until his ninety-eight pound wife smothered him.

Belwas: IQ of 2. Only eats liver, onions, and puppies. A real social charmer.

Robert: Drunken, philandering wife beater. Those were his good days.

Which other athletes are dead? Donal Noye, Mag the Mighty, Jory, Qhorin, Mandon, Syrio, Arys...

Which athletes are crippled? Loras, Victarion, Asha, Brienne...

And of those who still live and are healthy, how many have compromised their honor? Stannis, Bronn (well, he never had any) and... and... well, everyone who's fought for Houses Baratheon, Lannister, Stark, Tully, Bolton, Frey, Greyjoy, Tyrell, Florent, Karstark, Umber...

There are three fighters who have their lives, their health, and their honor. And they're all older. Brynden Tully, Areo Hotah, and Barristan Selmy. I wonder if GRRM was treated nicely by three athletes? The tri-captains of the football team. Three seniors. Brandon Tilly, Harry O'Toole, and Barry Salme.

Think about it... We know that GRRM is a huge football fan. His Giants have won two titles in the last five years. When GRRM signed my copy of ADWD last summer, I asked him who his favorite football player was... and he said the legendary, retired Giant Lawrence Taylor.

It's an interesting concept... How much of his personal past is directly applicable to the characters and stories in ASOIAF? GRRM has stated that he is most like Tyrion. A reader. A thinker. A non-athlete. Tyrion loves to feel more powerful than the obvious strongmen like Sandor and Gregor.

But back to bards...

ASOIAF is classified as fantasy. Historical fantasy. Low magic fantasy. Political fantasy. So all the themes of fantasy are expected... magic, dragons, kings, princesses, knights, battles, blood, blood, and more blood. But there are some very interesting themes that consistently show up. Bards their music are just such a theme. Food is another. Social justice. Religion. Clothes. Names. Familial connections.

Music runs throughout the story. There's music in Winterfell. Music at the Wall. Music north of the Wall. Music on the Iron Islands. Music at the Eyrie. Music in King's Landing. Music in Oldtown. There are songs in taverns. Songs in brothels. Songs in castles. Songs at court. There is singing at weddings. Singing at funerals. Singing on the road. Singing for patronage. Singing for scheming. Singing for spying. It never stops. The only part of the story where there may be a dearth of music is in Dany's POVs.

GRRM was born around 1950. He grew up in the transition of popular music from big band to rock and roll. What a time to be alive. Chuck Berry, Roy Orbison, Pat Boone, Duke Ellington, Bing Crosby, The Platters, The Beatles, Frank Sinatra, Nat King Cole, Ray Charles, Leonard Bernstein, and Bob Dylan. There was vibrant life in all aspects of American music.

If Werthead or Raven were here, they could tell us if GRRM has ever commented regarding how music has influenced him. Mayhaps I should have asked him who his favorite songwriter/composer is...

Edit: A-roc, Welcome! My apologies for going so far off topic. But let me say that even though Sansa and Sam are not bards, their lives are filled with music. They like to sing. They like to be entertained. Both take comfort in religious songs.

Church music has changed dramatically in my life. People my age, or younger, no longer know the old hymns. I remember some. And like Sam and Sansa, I like hearing them... acapella or with the organ... Be Thou My Vision, A Mighty Fortress, and Immortal, Invisible come to mind.

[Tywin]

Some totally random comments:

1) Welcome A-Roc!

2) I don't doubt that GRRM was picked on by both the musicians and by the football players. I mean look at the guy. I played a lot of football in highschool and picked up the guitar a couple years ago. I totally would have taken his girlfriend.

3) We still do all the old hymns at Catholic services. We have an organ and everything at our parish (although I've thought about switching to the church across town just because they don't have an organ).

[Boaz]

Tywin, I played high school football in Kansas. We ventured south every year. We always had two of the three schools on our schedule... Casady, Holland Hall, and Heritage Hall. They all had at least four times our enrollment... and the bus rides home used to be painful.

Now, I must say that we had the best high school band. Since we were so small, we rented the Wichita State University Pep Band for our home games. But those college guys (bards) used to try and pick up our cheerleaders... and that was not cool.

[Ursa major]

Can one assume that the increasing presence of cyvasse in the books - there was a game being played in one of the TWoW chapters that GRRM read out at Eastercon - is another indication the GRRM is looking back at his early years? (GRRM was a chess tournament director back then.)






.

[ArstenWhitebeard]

GRRM may have also had a soft spot for Feral or Wild women. both Robb stark and Jon Snow spared the lives of wildling women.

[Tywin]

Originally Posted by Boaz

Tywin, I played high school football in Kansas. We ventured south every year. We always had two of the three schools on our schedule... Casady, Holland Hall, and Heritage Hall. They all had at least four times our enrollment... and the bus rides home used to be painful.

Now, I must say that we had the best high school band. Since we were so small, we rented the Wichita State University Pep Band for our home games. But those college guys (bards) used to try and pick up our cheerleaders... and that was not cool.

1) I live in Oklahoma because our nation sends me here. I grew up in the Chicago area, so probably didn't personally destroy you on the field.

2) Key word in the sentence about band guys trying to pick up your cheerleaders is "trying". Two distinct types of bands with important differences in how they relate to women: a) "Band" = 4-5 guys with guitars and a drummer with women falling all over themselves to get backstage. b) "Band" = 50-100 awkward kids in pseudo-military uniforms who cheerleaders generally don't get too excited about.

[Boaz]

Tywin, The nation sent you to defend Oklahoma? Then you need to see George Gobel's comments.

Ursa, You're keeping us on track. You think GRRM was on the chess team?

Arsten, It's called the Garden State, but I dunno 'bout feral women in New Jersey. Snooki isn't too civilized.

Edit: Forgot the link.

[Eulalia]

Aren't writers more or less bards?!

A bear, a bear, all black and brown and covered with hair...

Are you kidding, GRRM would have been a blast to date! I'm sure role playing would have been involved. I dated a quarterback in high school, ho hum.

[A-roc]

All, thanks for the welcome. I am rereading ADWD and I found another "bard" who was not so lucky.

Tiny SPOILER. Not a big issue, but it made me laugh when i read it. The Sons of the Harpy are stepping up their game in Meereen, and Shavepate is going through a list of the recently slain. "Three freedmen, murdered in their homes," the Shavepate said. "A moneylender, a cobbler, and the harpist Rylona Rhee. They cut her fingers off before the killed her."

She's the only one named and has a bit more description. I was mostly joking with my OP, but it sure does seem like a pattern. Whether or not it is based on GRRM's experience, we'll probably never know, but what his personal life brings to the tale is an interesting topic.

GRRM certainly has a knack for creating cultural detail: songs, food, drink, clothes...one thing I noticed missing though is nobody seems to smoke anything. No tobacco or anything weed like such as in the LOTR. The closest thing is the red chew, the name of which is escaping at the moment. Does GRRM smoke a pipe or I am just making that up because he looks some salty fisherman with that beard and hat in his cover photos?

Back on topic. Bards. Can anyone please help with some of the questions I had earlier?

I really am fond of the little connections throughout this series. Does the bard who stayed in Winterfell that Sansa was thinking about in the Eyrie make any other appearances? Or do the bards at Joffrey's wedding have any other connections?

Eulalia, it's my impression that writers are more maesters than bards, because they write most of the books in Westoros. Point taken though. Also, you can say it would've been a blast to date GRRM in HS now that you know he is brilliant, but back then it wouldn't shock me if he was all pimply, shy, unhygienic, and not popular with the girls. Nah, stick with the dudes in the band, and not the marching band geeks Tywin was talking about. Just joking here, I have a lot of respect for all musicians and definitely for GRRM.

Lastly, as a guitar player and diehard Redskins fan, GRRM can eat it!

[A-roc]

In the ADWD thread, cape royd already posted about this topic. About half way down of page 7 of "ADWD - Discussion - WARNING: SPOILERS!" (Post count too low to post links).

"3. There is actually a whole volume in which a musician or singer doesn't get brutally tortured and murdered. There are only loving, wistful recollections of the scenes in which musicians or singers were brutally tortured or murdered--and the hint of another bard about to get flayed. I wonder whether GRRM once had a high-school sweetheart stolen by a guitar player or something, since ASOIAF is almost like Revenge of the Writer Against the Musicians."

Funny because somebody else saw the same pattern and came to the exact same conclusion! I promise I only just read that post today and didn't try to steal cape's idea. Cape mentions recollections and a bard about to get flayed, so I will try to pull those out while I work on my re-read of ADWD.

[Eulalia]

I think that GRRM's feelings about Bards would be a great question to ask him.

Did go to prom with an artsy, eccentric looking guy who became a writer! However he was not shy, or pimply or unhygienic. Is that a real thing? I don't recall anyone like that in our D&D group. Maybe we get less shallow as we get older.

I suppose most writers are more like Maesters. Don't they write a lot of non-fiction? And they are supposed to be celebate, right? I can only think of one fiction that Penny liked and it was not great. But there must have been more.