the Dragon has 3 heads, A discussion on Prophecy

[ArstenWhitebeard]

Okay new (perhaps a BIT crackpot) theory about this prophecy!

As I was writing the previous post, I had a realization.In the middle of the Dothraki Sea, is a massive mountain named the Mother of Mountains, which serves as a holy place to the Dothraki people, especially the Men (as they are the only ones who can set foot on it). It lies at the heart of, or near to, Vaes Dothrak, the "city" of the horse people.

So we have the Mother of Mountains, which serves almost as a god, or at least temple, of the Dothraki. As a Mother, she must have children, but there are no other mountains in the Dothraki sea, but the Dothraki people themselves could be her children. is it possible then, that the other mountains could be the various Khalasars of the Dothraki? each Khalasar has a Khal, which is the top of the Hoard. So each Khal is like a mountain. Khal Drogo and his Khalasar is already blowing in the wind. Perhaps Khal Jogho will be next.

We don't know what is going to happen with Dany and the Khalasar that just stumbled upon her, but we can assume that if they mean her harm, her nearby dragon, Drogon, Might swoop in burn Khal Jogho, in which case she may get to be the head of his Khalasar, cause who's gonne fight back agains a girl with a dragon. Maybe she will then go around and kill all the Khals, and their blood riders, and take over their Khalasars and SHE will be the stalion that mounts the world, and she will be the one to unite all the Khalasars.

This would also fit in with the metaphorical return of Drogo, as she will again be the Khalessi of a powerful hoard of Dothraki.

[juleska]

** WARNING - MAJOR SPOILERS FOR ACoK ONWARDS **

This is gonna be a long one....you're welcome, Boaz!

I recently re-read ACOK and paid very close attention to the events in the HOTU, not only what was revealed but also Dany's reaction to those revelations. I agree with Arsten that the visions we see are a combination of things that happened in the past, things that will happen in the future, or things that might have happened differently.

With that in mind, looking at Dany's visions (apologies in advance if I'm repeating theories that anyone or everyone has put out before, I don't claim any of this is original just that I'm processing it for the first time):

"In one room, a beautiful woman sprawled naked on the floor while four little men crawled over her. They had rattish pointed faces and tiny pink hands, like the servitor who had brought her the glass of shade. One was pumping between her thighs. Another savaged her breasts, worrying at the nipples with his red mouth, tearing and chewing."

There are several possibilities for who the woman is. It may be Lady Tansa's daughter being attacked by the mob in Kings Landing. It may be Jeyne Poole being attacked by Ramsay, or even Lady Hornwood. Or it could be a throw-back to something that happened during Aerys reign. Not sure how important this one is but it was important enough for GRRM to describe the scene in detail.

"Farther on she came upon a feast of corpses. Savagely slaughtered, the feasters lay strewn across overturned chairs and hacked trestle tables, asprawl in pools of congealing blood. Some had lost limbs, even heads. Severed hands clutched blood cups, wooden spoons, roast fowl, heels of bread. In a throne above them sat a dead man with the head of a wolf. He wore an iron crown and held a leg of lamb in one hand as a king might hold a scepter, and his eyes followed Dany with mute appeal."

This is pretty obviously about the Red Wedding. As an aside, re-reading ACOK there were a LOT of signs pointing to TRW that make it seem thunderingly obvious now. But that's another conversation I'll save for another thread.

After her vision of TRW, she sees a vision of the house in Braavos:

"She fled from him, but only as far as the next open door. I know this room, she thought. She remembered those great wooden beams and the carved animal faces that adorned them. And there outside the window, a lemon tree! The sight of it made her heart ache with longing. It is the house with the red door, the house in Braavos. No sooner had she thought it than old Ser Willem came into the room, leaning heavily on his stick. "Little princess, there you are," he said in his gruff kind voice. "Come," he said, "come to me, my lady, you're home now, you're safe now." His big wrinkled hand reached for her, soft as old leather, and Dany wanted to take it and hold it and kiss it, she wanted that as much as she had ever wanted anything. Her foot edged forward, and then she thought, He's dead, he's dead, the sweet old bear, he died a long time ago. She backed away and ran.

GRRM talks so much about the house with the red door and Dany's longing for it in early books, it makes me wonder what significance it has to just hammer that point again here. It seems like the "Red Door" has some kind of significance in general....but maybe I'm over-reaching. I feel pretty strongly that everything we see in the HOTU lays out a map for the direction of the story, and not just a reflection on the past.....so if that's the case, what does this exchange tell us about the future? I'm not sure.

"Finally a great pair of bronze doors appeared to her left, grander than the rest. They swung open as she neared, and she had to stop and look. Beyond loomed a cavernous stone hall, the largest she had ever seen. The skulls of dead dragons looked down from its walls. Upon a towering barbed throne sat an old man in rich robes, an old man with dark eyes and long silver-grey hair. "Let him be king over charred bones and cooked meat," he said to a man below him. "Let him be the king of ashes." Drogan shrieked, his claws digging through silk and skin, but the king on his throne never heard, and Dany moved on."

Here she's clearly seeing her father talking about his intention to use wildfire to defy Robert. And while he didn't get to use the wildfire, Robert did eventually become the King of Ashes. He ruled unhappily, denied the woman he loved, was never given any trueborn heirs and his house is left to rip itself apart fighting over a burnt and broken land, ravaged by war. It also makes me wonder if this exchange foretells what will become of Westeros by the time Dany's dragons have their showdown with The Others.

The next vision of course is the one that is most discussed:

"Viserys, was her first thought the next time she paused, but a second glance told her otherwise. The man had her brother's hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. "Aegon," he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. "What better name for a king?"

"Will you make a song for him?" the woman asked.

"He has a song," the man replied. "He is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire." He looked up when he said it and his eyes met Dany's, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. "There must be one more," he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. "The dragon has three heads." He went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings. Sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind to speed her on her way."

Re-reading this passage now, I am absolutely certain that Aegon will be one of the dragon riders. So that leaves the question of who will be the 3rd. I think we can rule out Tyrion, I think he has a different role. But I still believe that Jon will be the third head and I think I've found further evidence that he is, in fact, a trueborn son of Rhaegar and not a bastard.

Of all crazy things, it was buried in the nightmares that Theon was having as he tried in vain to rule over Winterfell:

"That night he dreamed of the feast Ned Stark had thrown when King Robert came to Winterfell. The hall rang with music and laughter, though the cold winds were rising outside. At first it was all wine and roast meat, and Theon was making japes and eyeing the serving girls and having himself a fine time . . . . until he noticed that the room was growing darker. The music did not seem so jolly then; he heard discords and strange silences, and notes that hung in the air bleeding. Suddenly the wine turned bitter in his mouth, and when he looked up from his cup he saw that he was dining with the dead.

King Robert sat with his guts spilling out on the table from the great gash in his belly, and Lord Eddard was headless beside him. Corpses lined the benches below, grey-brown flesh sloughing off their bones as they raised their cups to toast, worms crawling in and out of the holes that were their eyes. He knew them, every one; Jory Cassel and Fat Tom, Porther and Cayn and Hullen the master of horse, an dall the others who had ridden south to King's Landing never to return. Mikken and Chayle sat together, one dripping blood and the other water. Benfred Tallhart and his Wild Hares filled most of the table. The miller's wife was there as well, and Farlen, even the wildling Theon had killed in the wolfswood the day he had saved Bran's life.

But there were others with faces he had never known in life, faces he had only seen in stone. The slim, sad girl who wore a grown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered wth gore could only be Lyanna. Her brother Brandon stood beside her, and their father Lord Rickard just behind. Along the walls figures half-seen moved through the shadows, pale shades with long grim faces. The sight of them sent fear shivering through Theon sharp as a knife. And then the tall doors opened with a crash and a freezing gale blew down the hall, and Robb came walking out of the night. Grey Wind stalked beside, eyes burning, and man and wolf alike bled from half a hundred savage wounds."

Okay, first the thing about Robb is CLEAR (in retrospect) foreshadowing of TRW, one of many moments in ACOK that made me go "Duh! I should've seen it coming!"

The part about Lyanna is what really caught my interest though. Her relationship with Rhaegar has always been signified by the blue rose. She's wearing a crown of roses, which tells me the crown ties her to Rhaegar, and Rhaegar being a prince must only mean she is a princess. And she's wearing a white gown spattered in gore. The gore must surely be her blood from the childbirth that killed her, and the white gown together with the crown tells me she and Rhaegar were in fact married.

I'm beginning to think that Robert knew Rhaegar wed Lyanna, and that he flat made up the story about her being raped. Does any other character contend that she was raped? No, only Robert as far as I recall. Every other character's account says simply that Lyanna disappeared with Rhaegar.

I think this is further strengthened by the fact that everything else seen in Theon's dream here are things that are known to be true and occurred in the past (the vision of Robb being the last and the only thing that hasn't happened yet). So if every death Theon sees in this vision, and the associated symbolism, is a known fact, the detail of Lyanna's dress and crown cannot be ignored and must be accepted as fact....that she died in a white dress wearing a crown. I think she died as Rhaegar's bride.

Anyway....back to the HOTU....

Once Dany gets past the long hallway and actually reaches the Undying she has more visions.

"I have come for the gift of truth," Dany said. "In the long hall, the things I saw . . . were they true visions, or lies? Past things, or things to come? What did they mean?"

. . . the shape of shadows . . . morrows not yet made . . . drink from the cup of ice . . . drink from the cup of fire . . . mother of dragons . . . child of three . . .

"Three?" She did not understand.

This confused me at first I think for the same reason it confused Dany, in that she can only have 2 parents unless there's something funky we don't know. But given the rest of the prophecies from the Undying, I think it means she is a "child of threes"....meaning she will experience things in sets of three.

. . . three heads has the dragon . . . the ghost chorus yammered inside her skill with never a lip moving, never a breath stirring in the still blue air . . . mother of dragons . . . child of storm . . . The whispers became a swirling song . . . . three fires must you light . . . one for life and one for death and one to love . . . Her own heart was beating in unison to the one that floated before her, blue and corrupt . . . three mounts must you ride . . . one to bed and one to dread and one to love . . . The voices were growing louder, she realized, and it seemed her heart was slowing, and even her breath. . . . three treasons will you know . . . once for blood and once for gold and once for love . . .

I think the fact that they reiterate the "three heads of the dragon" in this context is significant, and I also think it has dual meaning. I think it's completely possible that what some of you have postulated is correct, that the "three heads of the dragon" represents not necessarily riders, but people she relies on for counsel. I think it's possible for that to be true while also being true that there are three riders for the three dragons. And I think it represents the three different streams of thought she has that always seem to be at war with one another: her thinking as a woman (which leads her to take on her loverboy), her thinking as the rightful queen of Westeros, the last of the Targs (as far as she knows), and her thinking as the liberator of the the slaves of the free cities, and her responsibilities towards those she has freed.

If that's the case, then she isn't necessarily limited to only three instances of any of the scenarios they name....she may have three mounts to ride as a woman, three mounts as the Queen of Westeros and three mounts as the liberator of slaves. To simplify, I think it means that whichever "side" of her is doing the thinking, she will continue to experience things in threes, and she should spend less time worrying about which "thing" meets the prophecy. She knows she will experience treasons, she knows she will love more than one, she knows she will light fires. Instead of worrying about the counts she should use that knowledge to guide her decisions and follow her gut.

"I don't . . . " Her voice was no more than a whisper, almost as faint as theirs. What was happening to her? "I don't understand," she said more loudly. What was it so hard to talk here? "Help me. Show me."

. . . help her . . . the whispers mocked . . . show her . . .

Then phantoms shivered through the murk, images in indigo. Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth. A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him.

A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair beneath the banner of a fiery stallion....this has got to be her vision of the son she lost. A son I think will return to her when she marries Khal Drogo come again....in the form of Khal Jhaqo. But the fact that he's standing beneath a banner with a burning city behind him...they must be in Westeros. That said I don't think the story will run long enough to show her son born and grown, commanding an army....so this is either a vision of a distant future that we'll never read, or it's a vision of what would have happened had Rhaego lived.

Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name

Long cited as evidence of Rhaegar's love for Lyanna, the only woman he was said to have loved other than his wife, and it just says "a woman's name"....I think this is strong evidence, further bolstered by other visions that lead me to think Jon is Rhaegar's trueborn son.

. . . mother of dragons, daughter of death . . .

Wondering what is the meaning of the "daughter of death" here. Mother of dragons is an easy one, the dragons exist because she gave them life through the fire, making her their mother. Daughter implies that she is the product of death, not the cause of it. May be a reference to the fact her mother died in childbirth, or that her father was slain, or simply that everyone in her family who came before her is dead (or so she thinks, her nephew Aegon being the exception, and Jon, if I'm right). Here again the rule of threes comes to mind. Each of those three had a time where they were believed to be dead and two of the three (so far) had a moment where they returned from the dead.

In Aegon's case of course, most of the world believes he died at Gregor's hand, but he is still alive and is returning.

In Dany's case, her people thought she was dead or would die when she climbed on the funeral pyre, but she lived. Most thought she was dead when she rode off on Drogan, but she lived again. I think she has one more "rebirth" awaiting her, but we'll see.

Jon of course, we think is dead, but he's got someone fond of fire nearby to bring him back.

Glowing like a sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow.

Clearly Stannis. The "cast no shadow" part is what catches my attention here, though. Having recently re-read it, the shadow that Mel "births" in the boat under Storms End is obviously Stannis. Davos sees the shadow and the narrative states he knew the shadow, and the man who cast it well. Is there any man in the story that Davos knows better than Stannis?

A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd.

This one I don't know, but it may be a reference to the tourney where Rhaegar won Lyanna's love. Or it may be a vision of Dany and / or Aegon's return to Westeros, rallying Dorne and the Southern kingdoms.

From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire. . .

This one has significance when connected with one of Bran's wolf dreams as Winterfell is put to the torch by Ramsay. The two together give strong evidence to the theory that there is in fact a dragon in Winterfell, and that the dragon is now "loose", which would help account for the further increase in magical powers that show in the books that follow. From Bran's wolf dream:

"The ashes fell like a soft grey snow. He padded over dry needles and brown leaves, to the edge of the wood where the pines grew thin. Beyond the open fields he could see the great piles of man-rock stark against the swirling flames. The wind blew hot and rich with the smell of blood and burnt meat, so strong he began to salver.

Yet as one smell drew them onward, others warned them back. He sniffed at the drifting smoke. Men, many men, many horses, and fire, fire, fire. No smell was more dangerous, not even the hard cold smell of iron, the stuff of man-claws and hardskin. The smoke and ash clouded his eyes, and in the sky he saw a great winged snake whose roar was a river of flame. He bared his teeth, but then the snake was gone."

I think just as the fire Dany set birthed the dragons from the eggs, the fire of Winterfell freed the dragon there. What is the significance of a dragon in Winterfell? I think it strengthens the connection of Lyanna and Rhaegar as Jon's legitimate parents.

Back to the HOTU....

mother of dragons, slayer of lies . . .

Slayer of lies must have some meaning, but don't know what?

Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars.

Don't know the significance of this one either.

A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly.

I believe this is Uncle Coldhands, the prow of what ship though? Going where? And why?

A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness . . . mother of dragons, bride of fire . . .

Again the blue rose and the wall of ice....together with the vision of her being a "bride of fire", I think this means she must go to the Wall, where she will become the bride of fire to the "ice" that is Jon.

Faster and faster the visions came, one after the other, until it seemed as if the very air had come alive. Shadows whirled and danced inside a tent, boneless and terrible. A little girl ran barefoot toward a big house with a red door. Mirri Maz Duur shrieked in the flames, a dragon bursting from her brow. Behind a silver horse the bloody corpse of a naked man bounced and dragged.

All visions of things that already happened.

A white lion ran through grass taller than a man.

A white lion.....Jaime perhaps? What grass is he running through? The Dothraki Sea? Is Jaime going to Essos as well?

Beneath the mother of mountains, a line of naked crones crept from a great lake and knelt shivering before her, their grey heads bowed. Ten thousand slaves lifted bloodstained hands as she raced by on her silver, riding like the wind. "Mother!" they cried. "Mother, mother!" They were reaching for her, tugging at her cloak, the hem of her skirt, her foot, her leg, her breast. They wanted her, needed her, the fire, the life, and Dany gasped and opened her arms to give herself to them."

Clearly connected with the slaves she frees who later call her mother, I think this vision is telling her that if she gives in to their cries (as she did) then it will destroy her.

I have more, other visions etc that came from other parts of the book, but wanted to focus on what came from the HOTU first.

Thoughts? Comments?

[juleska]

Could it be my post is TLDR even for Boaz?

[Eulalia]

Good post Juleska, but maybe too many notes!

I think the white lion is Tyrion, who makes the grass look too tall.

Very nice assembly of the prophesies. Yes, I think the white dress and crown are important details about Lyanna.

Slayer of lies. Could it be that she slays the Sphinx?

I think there will be three dragon riders, but who knows? Right now there is one.

There is a lot to ponder!

[The Imp]

Outstanding effort jules. I'm not sure about a few of your interpretations though. The one that stands out the most is this one

Quote:
Glowing like a sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow.
Clearly Stannis. The "cast no shadow" part is what catches my attention here, though. Having recently re-read it, the shadow that Mel "births" in the boat under Storms End is obviously Stannis. Davos sees the shadow and the narrative states he knew the shadow, and the man who cast it well. Is there any man in the story that Davos knows better than Stannis?

Might that not be a reference to a yet unseen "King of the Others"

[juleska]

Originally Posted by Eulalia

Good post Juleska, but maybe too many notes!

I know, it took me ages to type it up.....lol. I was just so excited because on this re-read of ACOK, after finishing the 5 books so far and participating in all the discussions here, so many things "clicked" that didn't make much sense to me before.

Originally Posted by Eulalia

I think the white lion is Tyrion, who makes the grass look too tall.

Good point.....and that would make sense because Tyrion is already there and we have no reason right now to believe Jaime is headed to Essos (though where the hell is he, exactly?). I only thought of Jaime because it said "a white lion"....and Jaime is still technically a white knight of the Kingsguard. What would make Tyrion white? Hmm....

Originally Posted by Eulalia

Very nice assembly of the prophesies. Yes, I think the white dress and crown are important details about Lyanna.

To me it's near indisputable evidence, especially in the context with all the other anecdotal evidence (not the least of which are Ned's memories).

Originally Posted by Eulalia

Slayer of lies. Could it be that she slays the Sphinx?

Could be....I've forgotten nearly everything she does in ADWD.

[juleska]

Originally Posted by The Imp

Outstanding effort jules. I'm not sure about a few of your interpretations though. The one that stands out the most is this one

Might that not be a reference to a yet unseen "King of the Others"

Good point, hadn't thought of that....

I don't claim all my interpretations are indisputable (except Lyanna and the crown....I'm standing by that one!). But there is just *so much* prophecy and foreshadowing in ACOK, not just in the HOTU, that I was trying to wrap my head around it all. This is honestly just a serving of what I found on this re-read. I have dozens of other pages book marked as well.

[Eulalia]

Bring it on Jules!

Well, in the book, Tyrion has silver white hair! But I see why you choose Jaime.

[The Imp]

Originally Posted by juleska

Good point, hadn't thought of that....

I don't claim all my interpretations are indisputable (except Lyanna and the crown....I'm standing by that one!). But there is just *so much* prophecy and foreshadowing in ACOK, not just in the HOTU, that I was trying to wrap my head around it all. This is honestly just a serving of what I found on this re-read. I have dozens of other pages book marked as well.

GRRM clearly delights in foretelling/foreshadowing, and then writing the story so well that you STILL don't see it coming. As you were, I was also amazed at how many clues to TRW were scattered all over the preceding books.

[Eulalia]

Well Drogon is a mount that is pretty dread inspiring. But then it gets weirder.

[ArstenWhitebeard]

A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly
I believe this is Uncle Coldhands, the prow of what ship though? Going where? And why?

I think this is Jon Connington or possibly Victarion. Connington fits better because of the greyscale, but Victarion is heading Dany's way and may yet have some influence on her.

Quote:
Glowing like a sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow.
Clearly Stannis. The "cast no shadow" part is what catches my attention here, though. Having recently re-read it, the shadow that Mel "births" in the boat under Storms End is obviously Stannis. Davos sees the shadow and the narrative states he knew the shadow, and the man who cast it well. Is there any man in the story that Davos knows better than Stannis?

I think this is a reference to AA reborn, which could very well be Jon. The blue eyes might indicate him being brought back from the dead (though i hope not) the wights all have bright blue eyes.

[Raul]

one option is that white lion was actually Dany. In the begin of ADWD she wear a white lion skin which belonged to his late husband Drogo.It was too big for her, but smelled like Drogo...

[TK-421]

In episode 4 of season 3 of GOT, Varys says this to Lay Olenna when speaking about Littlefinger:
"He would burn this entire country if he could be King of the Ashes"

I think this brings a new twist to what Juleska posted above:



Quote:
"Finally a great pair of bronze doors appeared to her left, grander than the rest. They swung open as she neared, and she had to stop and look. Beyond loomed a cavernous stone hall, the largest she had ever seen. The skulls of dead dragons looked down from its walls. Upon a towering barbed throne sat an old man in rich robes, an old man with dark eyes and long silver-grey hair. "Let him be king over charred bones and cooked meat," he said to a man below him. "Let him be the king of ashes." Drogan shrieked, his claws digging through silk and skin, but the king on his throne never heard, and Dany moved on."
Here she's clearly seeing her father talking about his intention to use wildfire to defy Robert. And while he didn't get to use the wildfire, Robert did eventually become the King of Ashes. He ruled unhappily, denied the woman he loved, was never given any trueborn heirs and his house is left to rip itself apart fighting over a burnt and broken land, ravaged by war. It also makes me wonder if this exchange foretells what will become of Westeros by the time Dany's dragons have their showdown with The Others.