Syria

[innate]

The massacre of innocent people should be stopped. The worst part is that the Syrian army are killing their own people for one mans greed. The U.N should intervene like they did with Libya

[Bowler1]

If life were that easy. This is a civil war with strong support for both camps, should the UN be deciding the future of a country, or should the people in the country decide for themselves. In this case a significant part of the population would resent UN intervention. Syria is also in a part of the world where western involvement would not be welcome and could increase tensions with Syrian neighbours. I’m also very disappointed by the stand of Russia and China, which is mostly self-interest. So I don’t think UN boots on the ground is the answer and I don’t believe the UN will be able to act with one voice to even achieve this. So what do I think will happen, a lot more of what has happened, blood will flow and the rest of us will look on in shock and sadness.

[Yog-Sothoth]

Syria is not Libya, for starters Assad is a far more intelligent politician than the nutcracker that was Gaddhafi. Secondly unlike the Libyan Armed Forces, the Syrian Armed Forces are a professional well-equipped force that has remained loyal to the Assad regime, while in Libya you had mass-defections.

Then you have two Security Council members that are nuclear powers backing Assad unconditionally, that's probably the greatest factor behind the reason why nothing militarily has been done against the Assad regime, because Russia and China just keep veto-ing any intervention plans.

[JimBraiden]

As pointed out using air power against Assad a la Libya would not work- even if UN support could be obtained.
Boots on the ground?
Whose boots?
UK does not have the resources.
The US?
Obama may be the most incompetent president since Carter but even he is not foolish enough to embark on an armed intervention in the ME in the run up to an election.

It should also be noted that the intervention in Libya has been a complete disaster - the country has now split along tribal lines ( I remain amazed that so many journalists and pundits seem oblivious to the fact that the Arab Middle East is first and foremost a tribal
society) with various armed militias controlling separate towns and areas. The Islamists are tightening their grip ( as they are in Tunisia and Egypt), the TNC is powerless and the outlook both economic and political for the ordinary Libyans is pretty dire.
( The other group that lost out in the Libyan intervention was the
Bahrainis- the price for Saudi support for the UN 1973 resolution was their being allowed to invade Bahrain and put down the uprising there by the Shia majority)

And unlike Libya Syria is divided not only along tribal lines but also
religious- Sunni/Shia/Alawite plus various Christian groups.
And not only does Assad have support from China and Russia but Iran is also backing him with both men and materiel as well as all important fuel supplies.
Sometimes there just is no good solution to a problem.

[Clansman]

Originally Posted by JimBraiden

Obama may be the most incompetent president since Carter but even he is not foolish enough to embark on an armed intervention in the ME in the run up to an election.

???

What about George W. Bush? He left office with highest deficit in American history, two foreign wars (one of which was a violation of international law), and banking and securities deregulation and oversight (or lack thereof) that lead to the worst economic meltdown since 1929. I still don't understand the mathematics of "cut government revenues, and the books will balance".

Kind of screws yours plans a little bit, dontcha think, when your inbox is overflowing with all of the crap left behind by your predecessor.

Yet, I am in the midst of a thread derail. This is a topic for another thread.

[Yog-Sothoth]

^I too found that comment strange considering Obama brought down Osama Bin Laden, a feat Bush was incapable off for two straight terms and trillions in military spending, and now Al-Q is weaker than ever. Under Obama, Iraq is also finally coming back to the realm of countries and by 2015 this country will be fully functioning again, and Iran will have its hand full once more with the Neo-Babylonians, great news for the west.

I'm not so sure about Afghanistan, the state-structure collapsed twenty years before the 2001 invasion, it has a long way to go, so which ever way that country goes, it can't be blamed on Obama.

[JimBraiden]

I would have thought President Obama's incompetence was self evident but if you need proof....well talk about a target rich environment.
First of all the Bush inheritance meme- might I point out that Obama's campaign was based on his claim that he would correct what had gone wrong under Bush?
(And to be fair to Bush- not one of my favorite presidents- but the seeds of the 2008 crash were sown long before he took office- beginning with the Carter Administrations interference in the mortgage market, and the Reagan and Clinton deregulation of the banking industry) however to return to the case in hand.
We could kick of with Obama's speech in Dec 2009 when he announced that it was his intention to withdraw US troops from Afghanistan by the end of Jan 2013.
At that point the war in Afghanistan was lost.
But even then Obama was not finished.
He was then forced to sack the general he had hand picked to oversee his strategy and go crawling to David Petraeus ( a man previously referred to by Obama's party as "General Betrayus" to beg him to take over.

And yes he did get Osama Bin Laden- and deserves the credit for that.

Or we could look at Obamacare- the jewel in the crown of his legislative agenda. Leaving aside his broken promises about how any such legislation would be drawn up in an open and honest manner ( indeed I believe he pledged to televise any negotiations) and the fact that he bulldozed the act through Congress without a single member of either house actually reading it, we now find the act is sitting in front of the Supreme Court where it will almost certainly be declared unconstitutional.
Not great going for a man touted as a constitutional scholar.

Or what about his much vaunted Green Jobs initiative- $90 billion spent and only 16100 jobs created-far short of the 200.000 Obama promised.
I could also mention the hundreds of millions loaned and lost to companies like Solyndra- and point out how much of this money went to those who contributed to the Obama campaign finances.

Or the deficit.$10 trillion in 2008- $16.4 trillion in 2012.

Number of Americans in work dropping to the lowest level in 30 years.

In the Middle East under his watch the Muslim Brotherhood and Jihadi Islamists have gained an increasing amount of control in Tunisia, Libya and Egypt.Iran is well on its way to obtaining nuclear weapons.
In fact if you really want evidence of his incompetence you need look no further than his re-election campaign.
You will note that he is running not on the record of his accomplishments but instead is basing his strategy on painting a negative picture of his opponent- rich/capitalist/ job destroyer.

Oh and as regards the illegality of the war in Iraq - I have often heard this claim but never seen any proof to back it up. My own opinion is that the war was legal but a mistake.

[Moonbat]

I wonder what the difference is between a legal war and an illegal one? Surely in every war the opposition is deemed to be breaking some kind of rule/law?

[I, Brian]

There's no significant oil in Syria, so there will be no military intervention.

However, I am very mindful that we are probably looking at a propaganda war here, so better to take general news reports with a degree of cynicism: who is giving the information and "facts" and why.

Not intended to be unhelpful, but there has been so much hard propaganda in the Israel-Palesinian conflict, that I see an overspill here, not least Syria being a Shi'a state aligned with Iran, the only other significant Shi'a state, both of which are linked to Hezbollah and other militant groups.

[Foxbat]

Personally, I think the best we (the rest of the world) can hope for is that one day, we get our hands on Assad and bring him to book for his crimes. I do agree that there is neither the resource nor political will to do anything close to what was done in Libya. Russia and China need to take a good look at themselves and then hang their heads in shame.

I've always believed in allowing the rule of law (no matter how frustrating it can be) to take its course but, especially after the news of the slaughter of the children, there is a part of me that would like to see Assad pay with his life in the streets of Homs.

He should remember what the Italian people did to Moussolini.

[JimBraiden]

I must say in his defense that President Obama is the one politician who has never disappointed me.
I claim he is incompetent and darn it he runs out and makes my case for me!

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics...sh-death-camp/

[Bowler1]

I Brian, what a suspicious mind you have and I suspect in this case correct. The media will focus in on Syria as it’s easy to present in black and white terms, big bad dictator and all that. Much harder to do with Israel as the roots of that problem go deeper and with ties to the USA.

Foxbat, they finally got Taylor and all the players involved in the Yugoslavia break up and put them on trial. Granted, decades had passed but finally justice of some form is in progress. I believe the same will happen for Syria but not anytime soon. Civil wars are always the most painful.

[svalbard]

Originally Posted by JimBraiden

I must say in his defense that President Obama is the one politician who has never disappointed me.
I claim he is incompetent and darn it he runs out and makes my case for me!

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics...sh-death-camp/

Please. A storm in a tea cup. Next you will be saying that Obama is not an American citizen, is a Muslim, a Communist etc.

He is not perfect, but he inherited one hell of a basket case of an economy. An economy that will continue to flounder until the US government faces that big elephant in the room. It is not Obamcare or any of his stimulus initiatives, but the vast sums that are spent on the military. Cut that spending and problems solved.

[JimBraiden]

Not if you are a Pole it's not.

And it's part of waht lawyers would call a pattern of behaviour?
So we have him claiming Austrians speak Austrian.
That there are 57 states in the Union.
And Britain and Argentina went to war over the Maldives.


And of course Obama is an American citizen.
And no he is not a Muslim.
Nor a Communist.

Just an incompetent and rather corrupt run of the mill Chicago politician.

As for Syria I just realised that there is one military power which could intervene- should the UN manage to pass a resolution allowing military action.
Don't know how the Isrealis might react to the UN asking them for a favour though.

[JimBraiden]

Of course to get back to the original topic if the US did cut its military budget that would make it rather difficult to intervene in places like Libya and Syria.